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HARVARD  COLLEGE 
LIBRARY 


GIFT  OF  THE 

GOVERNMENT 
OF  THE  UNITED  STATES 


us  Doc  2.791 


Committee  on  Uof-Afflerlcaa  activities 
HotLse 
88th  CoBgresB 


COHTEHTS 


1.  Comnninist  eustivities  in  the  Buff€LLo,  N,Y»,  %^^ 
area 

2.  Comsniziist  activities  in  the  Minneapolis,  Minn., 

area  ^c^/ 5 

3.  Defection  of  a  Bossian  seaman  (Testimony  of 
Vladislaw  Stepanovich  Tarasov)  ,.  >  y 

4.  Hearings  relating  to  H.R.352,  H.E.1617,  H.H.5368, 
H.E.8320,  H.E.8757,  H.R.10036.  H-R.10037,     ^- 
H.R.10077,  and  H.R.11718,  providing  for    ^^^^ 
creation  of  a  Freedom  Commission  and  Freedom 
Academy  Part  1 

5.  H      w     M        N    N    Part  2 

6.  U.S.  Communist  Party  assistance  to  foreign  'Hc^^ 
Commonist  governments  (Testimony  of  Maud 

Bass ell) 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  BUFFALO,  N.Y.,  AREA 

HARVARD  COLLZGc  Li3?'..;y  ~"^  ' 

DEPOSITED  By  THE 
UNITED  STATES  GOVERNMcNT 

OEC  28  1964 

HEARINGS 

BEFORE  THE 

COMMITTEE  ON  UN-AMERICAN  ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE  OE  REPRESENTATIVES 

EIGHTY-EIGHTH  CONGKESS 

SECOND  SESSION 


APRIL  29  AND  30,  1964 
INCLUDING  INDEX 


Printed  for  the  use  of  the 
Committee  on  Un-American  Activities 


U.S.  GOVERNMENT  PRINTING  OFFICE 

3fr-414  WASHINGTON  :   1964 


For  sale  by  the  Superintendent  of  Documents,  U.S.  Government  Printing  Office 
Washington,  D.C.,  20402  -  Price  40  cents 


-^^-^ 


COMMITTEE  ON  UN-AMERICAN  ACTIVITIES 
United  States  House  of  Repre8entati\^s 
EDWIN  E.  WILLIS,  Louisiana,  Chairman 
WILLIAM  M.  TUCK,  Virginia  AUGUST  E.  JOHANSEN,  Michigan 

JOE  R.  POOL,  Texas  DONALD  C.  BRUCE,  Indiana 

RICHARD  H.  ICHORD,  Missouri  HENRY  C.  SCHADEBERG,  Wisconsin 

GEORGE  F.  SENNER,  Jr.,  Arizona  JOHN  M.  ASHBROOK,  Ohio 

Francis  J.  McNamara,  Director 
Prank  S.  Tavennbr,  Jr.,  General  Counsel 
Alfred  M.  Nittlb,  Counsel 
William  Hitz,  Counsel 

n 


CONTENTS 


Pag« 

Synopsis 1517 

April  29,  1964:  Testimony  of— 

Andrew  J.  Berecz 1531 

Afternoon  session: 

Andrew  J.  Berecz  (resumed) 1554 

Paul  Sporn 1563 

Joseph  C.  Scioli... 1602 

Edward  A.  Wolkenstein 1605 

Evening  session: 

Seymour  Rudner 1610 

Helen  Schwartz 1614 

Walter  J.  Zvaleko 1621 

Tobias  L.  Schwartz 1627 

April  30,  1964:  Testimony  of— 

Gertrude  Alexander 1630 

Richard  H.  Alexander 1635 

Gloria  Massa 1637 

Max  Berman 1641 

Miroslaw  B.  Zelman 1643 

Joseph  Pranis 1647 

Emanuel  Fried t650 

Tobias  L.  Schwartz  (resumed) 1654 

Richard  H.  Alexander  (resumed) 1661 

Index i 

in 


Public  Law  601,  79th  Congress 

The  legislation  under  which  the  House  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities  operates  is  Public  Law  601,  79th  Congress  [1946]  ;  60  Stat. 
812,  which  provides : 

Be  it  enacted  by  the  Senate  and  House  of  Representatives  of  the  United  States 
of  America  in  Congress  assembled,  *  *  * 

PART  2— RULES  OF  THE  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 

RXJLE  X 
SEC.  121.  STANDING  COMMITTEES 

17.  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  to  consist  of  nine  Members. 

Rule  XI 

POWEES  AND  DUTIES  OF  COMMITTEES 


(q)  (1)  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities. 

(A)   Un-American  activities. 

(2)  The  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  as  a  wliole  or  by  subcommit- 
tee, is  autliorized  to  malie  from  time  to  time  investigations  of  (i)  the  extent, 
character,  and  objects  of  un-American  propaganda  activities  in  the  United  States, 
(ii)  the  diffusion  within  the  United  States  of  subversive  and  un-American  propa- 
ganda that  is  instigated  from  foreign  countries  or  of  a  domestic  origin  and  attacks 
the  principle  of  the  form  of  govermnent  as  guaranteed  by  our  Constitution,  and 
(iii)  all  other  questions  in  relation  thereto  that  would  aid  Congress  in  any  neces- 
sary remedial  legislation. 

ITie  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  shall  report  to  the  House  (or  to  the 
Clerk  of  the  House  if  the  House  is  not  in  session)  the  results  of  any  such  investi- 
gation, together  with  such  recommendations  as  it  deems  advisable. 

For  the  purpose  of  any  such  investigation,  the  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities,  or  any  subcommittee  thereof,  is  authorized  to  sit  and  act  at  such 
times  and  places  within  the  United  States,  whether  or  not  the  House  is  sitting, 
has  recessed,  or  has  adjourned,  to  hold  such  hearings,  to  require  the  attendance 
of  such  witnesses  and  the  production  of  such  books,  papers,  and  documents,  and 
to  take  such  testimony,  as  it  deems  necessary.  Subpenas  may  be  issued  under 
the  signature  of  the  chairman  of  the  committee  or  any  subcommittee,  or  by  any 
member  designated  by  any  such  chairman,  and  may  be  served  by  any  person 
designated  by  any  such  chairman  or  member. 


Rule  XII 

LEGISLATIVE  OVERSIGHT  BY  STANDING  COMMITTEES 

Sec.  136.  To  assist  the  Congress  in  appraising  the  administration  of  the  laws 
and  in  developing  such  amendments  or  related  legislation  as  it  may  deem  neces- 
sary, each  standing  committee  of  the  Senate  and  the  House  of  Representatives 
shall  exercise  continuous  watchfulness  of  the  execution  by  the  administrative 
agencies  concerned  of  any  laws,  the  subject  matter  of  which  is  within  the  juris- 
diction of  such  committee  ;  and,  for  that  purpose,  shall  study  all  pertinent  reports 
and  data  submitted  to  the  Congress  by  the  agencies  in  the  executive  branch  of 
the  Government. 

IV 


RULES  ADOPTED  BY  THE  88TH  CONGRESS 

House  Resolution  5,  January  9, 1963 

•  **«**• 

Rule  X 

STANDING    COMMITTEES 

1.  There  shall  be  elected  by  the  House,  at  the  commencement  of  each  Congress, 
*•***♦♦ 

(r)   Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  to  consist  of  nine  Members, 

Rule  XI 

POWEKS   AND   DUTIES   OF  COMMITTEES 

18.  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities. 

(a)  Un-American  activities. 

(b)  The  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  as  a  whole  or  by  subcommittee, 
is  authorized  to  make  from  time  to  time  investigations  of  (1)  the  extent,  char- 
acter, and  objects  of  un-American  propaganda  activities  in  the  United  States, 
(2)  the  diffusion  within  the  United  States  of  subversive  and  un-American  prop- 
aganda that  is  instigated  from  foreign  countries  or  of  a  domestic  origin  and 
attacks  the  principle  of  the  form  of  government  as  guaranteed  by  our  Constitu- 
tion, and  (3)  all  other  questions  in  relation  thereto  that  would  aid  Congress 
in  any  necessary  remedial  legislation. 

The  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  shall  report  to  the  House  (or  to  the 
Clerk  of  the  House  if  the  House  is  not  in  session)  the  results  of  any  such  investi- 
gation, together  with  such  recommendations  as  it  deems  advisable. 

For  the  purpose  of  any  such  investigation,  the  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities,  or  any  subcommittee  thereof,  is  authorized  to  sit  and  act  at  such  times 
and  places  within  the  United  States,  whether  or  not  the  House  is  sitting,  has 
recessed,  or  has  adjourned,  to  hold  such  hearings,  to  require  the  attendance 
of  such  witnesses  and  the  production  of  such  books,  papers,  and  documents,  and 
to  take  such  testimony,  as  it  deems  necessary.  Subpenas  may  be  issued  under 
the  signature  of  the  chairman  of  the  committee  or  any  subcommittee,  or  by  any 
member  designated  by  any  such  chairman,  and  may  be  served  by  any  i>erson 
designated  by  any  such  chairman  or  member. 

******* 

27.  To  assist  the  House  in  appraising  the  administration  of  the  laws  and  in 
developing  such  amendments  or  related  legislation  as  it  may  deem  necessary, 
each  standing  committee  of  the  House  shall  exercise  continuous  watchfulness 
of  the  execution  by  the  administrative  agencies  concerned  of  any  laws,  the  subject 
matter  of  which  is  within  the  jurisdiction  of  such  committee;  and,  for  that 
purpose,  shall  study  all  pertinent  reports  and  data  submitted  to  the  House  by 
the  agencies  in  the  executive  branch  of  the  Government. 


SYNOPSIS 

On  April  29  and  30,  1964,  a  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un- 
American  Activities  held  public  hearings  in  Buffalo,  N.Y.,  in  com- 
pliance with  a  resolution  adopted  by  the  full  committee  on  March 
4  of  the  same  year.  The  hearings  concerned  the  structure,  organiza- 
tion, strategy,  tactics,  and  major  objectives  of  the  Commimist  Party 
and  other  Communist  organizations  in  the  Buffalo  area.  Their  purpose 
was  to  assist  the  committee  and  the  Congress  in  considering  legislation 
designed  to  protect  the  national  security. 

Members  of  the  subcommittee  present  for  the  Buffalo  hearings  in- 
cluded Eepresentatives  Joe  R.  Pool,  of  Texas;  August  E.  Johansen,  of 
Michigan ;  Richard  H.  Ichord,  of  Missouri ;  and  John  M.  Ashbrook,  of 
Ohio. 

Mr.  Pool,  acting  as  chairman  in  the  absence  of  Mr.  Willis,  pointed 
out  that  the  committee  had  held  hearings  in  Buffalo  in  1957,  but  that 
significant  changes  in  Communist  Party  organization  and  activities 
had  taken  place  since  that  time  and  committee  investigation  revealed 
that  two  new  Communist  organizations,  the  Workers  World  Party  and 
the  Progressive  Labor  Movement,  had  come  into  being  in  the  Buffalo 
area  since  1957. 

The  Workers  World  group,  he  said,  had  been  founded  by  former 
members  of  the  Socialist  Workers  Party  (SWP)  in  Buffalo  who  had 
left  the  SWP  in  February  1959  because  they  believed  the  old-line  Trot- 
skyist  organization  was  not  sufficiently  revolutionary  in  its  outlook. 

The  Progressive  Labor  Movement  had  grown  out  of  a  faction  within 
the  orthodox  Communist  Party  which,  defying  the  main  party's  posi- 
tion, sided  with  Peking  in  the  dispute  between  the  Chinese  Communists 
and  Moscow.  Its  members  also  disagreed  with  the  policy  adopted  by 
the  National  Committee  of  the  CPUSA  on  the  action  to  be  taken  follow- 
ing the  Supreme  Court  decision  of  1961  upholding  the  registration 
provisions  of  the  Internal  Security  Act.  This  policy  was  to  reduce 
the  national  leadership  of  the  Communist  Party  to  three  and  ignore 
the  registration  order. 

The  dissident  faction  wanted  to  dissolve  the  Communist  Party  and 
re-form  it  under  a  new  name.  They  felt  this  would  obviate  the  need 
for  the  party  to  register  under  the  Internal  Security  Act  of  1950. 

Expelled  from  the  Communist  Party  in  1961  for  refusing  to  toe  its 
line,  Mortimer  Scheer,  a  leader  of  the  faction,  and  his  supporters 
organized  in  Buffalo  the  nucleus  of  a  new  Communist  group,  the  Pro- 
gressive Labor  Movement,  which  now  has  its  headquarters  in  New 
York  City. 

The  first  witness  was  Mr.  Andrew  Berecz,  who  had  served  as  an 
undercover  operative  for  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  from 
1942  until  1962,  reporting  on  Coimnunist  activities  in  the  Buffalo  area. 

In  compliance  with  Rule  XI,  sec.  26  (m)  of  the  House,  Mr.  Berecz' 
testimony  had  first  been  taken  in  executive  session,  and  all  persons 

1517 


1518    COMMUlSriST    ACTIYITIES    en    the    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

identified  by  him  as  Communists  whose  present  addresses  could  be 
determined  had  been  so  notified.  They  had  also  been  informed  that, 
if  they  so  desired,  they  could  appear  before  the  committee  in  execu- 
tive session  prior  to  the  holding  of  the  public  hearings  and  that  the 
committee  would  then  not  only  receive  their  testimony  but  would  also 
consider  any  requests  made  by  them  to  subpena  additional  witnesses 
in  their  behalf.  None  of  the  witnesses  summoned  for  the  Buffalo 
hearings,  and  none  of  the  other  persons  in  the  area  identified  as  Com- 
munists by  Mr.  Berecz,  took  advantage  of  this  opportunity. 

Mr.  Berecz  was  born  in  Hungary  on  February  28, 1914,  immigrated 
to  the  United  States  in  1929,  settled  in  the  Buffalo  area,  and  became  a 
naturalized  citizen  in  1936. 

Because  of  the  insurance  benefits  offered  by  it,  Mr.  Berecz  joined  the 
International  Workers  Order  (TWO)  in  late  1936  or  early  1937.  He 
testified  that  the  organization  operated  under  the  title  "International 
Workers  Order  Center"  in  the  Buffalo  area  and  was  divided  into  five 
nationality  groups.  He  was  elected  financial  secretary  of  the  Hun- 
garian Section  in  1939  and  held  that  position  until  the  IWO  was  dis- 
solved by  the  State  of  New  York  in  1953.  For  a  few  years  in  the  late 
1930's  and  early  1940's  Mr.  Berecz  was  also  chairman  of  the  entire 
IWO  Center.  It  was  during  this  period  that  he  first  discovered  that 
the  organization  made  financial  contributions  to  the  Communist  Party. 

It  was  in  1942,  Mr.  Berecz  recalled,  that  a  committee  at  the  IWO 
Center  decided  to  contribute  $300  to  each  of  the  nationality  papers 
and  $300  to  the  Daily  Worker.  The  donation  to  the  party  paper  was 
obtained  by  Frank  Herron,  and  Mr.  Berecz  testified  he  had  partici- 
pated in  its  authorization,  but  stated  that  he  was  not  aware  at  that 
time  of  the  true  nature  of  the  publication. 

Within  a  month  after  the  donation  was  made  to  the  Daily  Worker, 
Svea  Katz  and  Leonard  Costa  appeared  at  the  Center  and  "did  not 
ask"  but  "demanded"  $600  on  behalf  of  the  Communist  Party.  The 
committee  voted  to  give  them  the  money,  but  Mr.  Berecz,  as  chairman 
of  the  club,  refused  to  sign  the  check.  A  general  membership  meeting 
was  called  at  which  Mr.  Berecz  announced  that  he  never  was,  and 
would  never  become,  a  Communist.  For  this  he  was  removed  as 
chairman  of  the  club.  He  was,  however,  permitted  to  retain  his  posi- 
tion as  financial  secretary  of  the  Hungarian  Section. 

The  following  day  Mr.  Berecz  received  a  visit  from  three  FBI 
agents.  He  agreed  to  report  to  them  on  Communist  activities  at  the 
Center,  and  later  to  join  the  party  if  the  opportunity  developed  and 
report  on  its  activities  in  the  Buffalo  area. 

This  was  the  beginning  of  an  assignment  in  the  service  of  our  Nation 
which  was  to  last  for  20  years. 

From  1942  until  1946  he  reported  to  the  Bureau  on  Communist 
activities  at  the  Center.  In  1946  he  was  able  to  increase  the  scope  of 
his  infoi-mation  when  he  accepted  an  invitation  from  Sam  Coleman,  a 
Communist  Party  organizer,  and  John  Touralchuk  to  join  the  party. 

At  that  time,  Mr.  Berecz  was  employed  at  the  bonding  plant  of  the 
American  Radiator  and  Standard  Sanitary  Corporation.  The  party 
assigned  him  to  its  industrial  club  at  that  plant. 

Mr.  Berecz  identified  at  least  six  members  of  the  Communist  Party 
who  were  assigned  to  this  club  before  its  dissolution  in  the  1950's  when 
the  party  instituted  new  security  measures.     Under  these  measures 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1519 

the  party  organized  community  clubs  with  a  membership  of  not  less 
than  four,  nor  more  than  eight.  Mr.  Berecz  was  then  assigned  to  the 
Tonawanda  Club.  His  last  assigmnent  in  the  Communist  Party  was 
in  a  nationality  club  which,  the  witness  testified,  was  organized  by  the 
Erie  County  branch  of  the  party  in  late  1961  to  create  a  nationality 
culture  and  background  group  in  order  to  gain  new  members. 

The  Conunmiist  Party's  effort  to  colonize  Buffalo  industry  became 
apparent  to  Mr.  Berecz  shortly  after  1950,  when  many  party  members 
from  New  York  City  moved  into  the  Buffalo  area.  He  testified  that 
the  colonizers  were  well-educated  individuals,  capable  of  assuming 
much  better  positions  than  the  "hard  labor"  jobs  they  sought  in  the 
steel  mills  and  shops.  One  of  the  colonizers  to  invade  the  Buffalo 
area  at  that  time  was  Mortimer  Scheer.  Mr.  Berecz  also  identified  as 
Communist  Party  colonizers  in  the  Buffalo  area:  Sy  Rudner,  Alex- 
ander Salmin,  Sid  Ingerman,  Edward  Wolkenstein,  Marty  Zelman, 
Milton  Rosen,  Walter  Zvaleko,  and  Paul  Sporn. 

Organizers  for  the  Communist  Party  known  to  the  witness  during 
his  membership  in  the  party  included  Norman  Ross,  Sam  Coleman, 
Johnny  Noto,  Russell  DePasquale,  Joseph  Green,  Milton  Rosen,  and 
Mortimer  Scheer. 

Mr.  Berecz  testified  that  manipulation  and  exploitation  of  American 
youth  have  been  a  major  effort  of  the  Communist  Party.  In  the  recent 
past  Mortimer  Scheer  and  another  Buffalo  party  leader,  Anthony 
Massa,  were  assigned  to  handle  youth  work  in  the  Buffalo  area,  and 
party  members  were  encouraged  to  penetrate  non-Communist  youth 
organizations,  seeking  carefully  but  gradually  to  indoctrinate  the 
young  people  with  Marxist-Leninist  ideas. 

Other  targets  of  the  Communist  Party  include  "different  organiza- 
tions like  the  peace  movement,  fair  housing,  racial  matters;  they 
tried  to  get  into  all  these  organizations.  They  claimed  to  help,  but 
their  idea  was  to  get  in  there  and  then  advocate  communistic  ideas," 
Mr.  Berecz  stated. 

He  testified  that  a  committee  on  nuclear  testing  handled  Commu- 
nist Party  activity  in  that  field.  Gertrude  and  Richard  Alexander 
and  Ann  and  Abe  Copperman  were  assigned  to  this  committee  and 
were  engaged  in  passing  out  leaflets  demanding  an  end  to  nuclear  test- 
ing at  the  very  time  Russia  exploded  a  50-megaton  bomb.  Disturbed  by 
this  action,  they  asked  Anthony  Massa  for  an  explanation.  He  in- 
formed them  that  the  answer  would  have  to  come  from  the  party's  New 
York  headquarters.  Some  weeks  later,  Mr.  Massa  informed  the  Buf- 
falo Communists  that  "Khrushchev  said  that  the  free  nations  were 
against  him  and  that  they  were  doing  it  in  secret  and  that  is  why  he 
had  to  test  the  50-megaton  bomb." 

Gertrude  Alexander  was  also  assigned  to  work  in  the  Women 
Strike  for  Peace  and  the  Women's  International  League  for  Peace 
and  Freedom.  Other  party  members  asigned  to  work  in  these  organi- 
zations included  Bea  Berman,  Rose  Touralchuk,  Mrs.  Dorothy  Zel- 
man, and  the  senior  Mrs.  Zelman  (Mrs.  Maria  Zelman),  according 
to  Mr.  Berecz. 

On  June  6,  1961,  the  Supreme  Court  upheld  the  order  of  the  Sub- 
versive Activities  Control  Board  which  had  found  the  Communist 
Party  of  the  United  States  to  be  a  "Communist-action  organization" 


1520    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

within  the  meaning  of  the  Internal  Security  Act  of  1950  and  had  there- 
fore ordered  it  to  register  as  such  with  tlie  Attorney  General. 

The  CPUSA  refused  to  register.  Its  national  committee  decided 
to  reduce  the  national  party  leadership  to  three  individuals  and  simply 
ignore  the  registration  order. 

Mortimer  Scheer  and  others  who  wanted  a  more  militant  and  aggres- 
sive Communist  Party  opposed  this  course  of  action.  They  proposed 
instead  to  dissolve  the  CPUSA  and  reorganize  it  under  a  newname. 
They  felt  that,  if  this  were  done,  the  party  would  not  be  required  to 
register  under  the  Internal  Security  Act  of  1950. 

In  October  1961  a  meeting  was  held  in  the  home  of  John  McKenzie 
to  resolve  the  issue.  Mr.  Berecz,  who  was  present  at  the  meeting, 
testified  that  it  was  attended  by  Ben  Davis  and  Lou  Weinstock,  Com- 
munist Party  officials  from  New  York  City,  and  by  Paul  Sporn, 
Gloria  and  Anthony  Massa,  Gertrude  and  Richard  Alexander,  Ed- 
ward Wolkenstein,  Walter  and  Vera  Zvaleko,  Marty  and  Dorothy 
Zelman,  Bea  and  Max  Berman,  Sy  Rudner,  Hattie  Lumpkin,  and 
Mortimer  Scheer  of  the  Erie  County  branch  of  the  party. 

A  resolution  from  Communist  Party  headquarters  in  New  York 
was  presented  to  the  meeting  by  Ben  Davis.  It  called  for  Mortimer 
Scheer,  Edward  Wolkenstein,  and  Walter  Zvaleko  to  "get  in  line  with 
the  national  committee's  policy"  or  face  expulsion. 

The  trio  refused  to  obey  the  ultimatum  and  were  immediately  ex- 
pelled from  the  party  by  Ben  Davis.  Mr.  Berecz  testified  that  Davis 
also  "invited"  certain  members  from  the  Buffalo  area  who  spoke  in 
defense  of  Mortimer  Scheer  to  "go  with"  Scheer. 

A  four-member  secretariat  was  then  appointed  by  Ben  Davis  to 
run  the  party  in  the  Buffalo  area.  Hattie  Lumpkin  refused  the  ap- 
pointment, leaving  Tony  Massa,  Marty  Zelman,  and  Sy  Rudner  to 
head  the  Erie  County  Communist  Party.  In  July  1962  Tony  Massa, 
having  been  accused  of  being  "antagonistic"  toward  some  of  the  mem- 
bers, was  removed  from  the  secretariat  by  William  Patterson. 

Mr.  Berecz  also  testified  briefly  about  a  Communist  Party  meet- 
ing, held  in  November  1961  in  the  home  of  Everett  Jones,  at  which 
Louis  Weinstock  presented  a  resume  of  the  party's  position  on  the 
registration  issue.  He  announced  that  the  CPUSA  would  be  under 
the  leadership  of  Gus  Hall,  Ben  Davis,  and  Elizabeth  Flynn. 

In  addition  to  Mr.  Berecz,  who  supplied  the  committee  with  much 
valuable  information,  14  other  persons  were  called  as  witnesses.  Com- 
munist Party  activity  on  the  part  of  each  of  these  witnesses  had 
been  the  subject  of  public  and/or  executive  testimony  by  Mr.  Berecz. 

Paul  Sporn,  the  second  witness  to  be  heard  is  an  instructor  at  the 
State  University  of  New  York  at  Buffalo. 

He  was  identified  by  Mr.  Berecz  as  having  been  a  Communist  Party 
colonizer  and,  more  recently,  the  education  and  literature  director  of 
the  Erie  County  branch  of  the  party.  At  the  Communist  Party 
meeting  in  October  1961,  Mr.  Berecz  recalled,  Paul  Sporn  spoke 
out  in  defense  of  Mortimer  Scheer,  who  was  facing  expulsion  from  the 
party.  Mr.  Ben  Davis  then  "invited"  Mr.  Sporn  and  others  who  sup- 
ported the  Buffalo  leader  to  leave  the  Communist  Party. 

Appearing  under  oath,  Mr.  Sporn  acknowledged  that  he  had 
graduated  cum  laude  from  New  York  University  in  1951  and  for  a 
short  time  thereafter  had  been  employed  by  the  Eighth  Street  Book 
Sliop  in  New  York  City. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    EST    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1521 

The  witness  was  confronted  with  copies  of  applications  for  em- 
ployment submitted  by  him  to  four  Buffalo  industries,  dating  from 
1953  through  1955.  In  each  instance,  Mr.  Sporn  had  sought  positions 
in  a  laboring  capacity.  Admitting  to  only  a  high  school  education, 
he  had  concealed  the  fact  that  he  was  a  college  graduate. 

Mr.  Sporn  acknowledged  having  executed  the  applications  and 
having  worked  for  the  firms  in  the  capacities  indicated.  When  asked 
if,  in  his  application  to  the  Twin  Coach  Company,  he  had  signed  the 
statement,  "I  am  not  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  or  any  orga- 
nization recommending  the  overthrow  of  the  United  States  Govern- 
ment," Mr.  Sporn  invoked  the  fifth  amendment  and  other  reasons  in 
refusing  to  answer.  He  also  refused  on  the  same  basis  to  answer 
questions  regarding  Communist  Party  membership  at  the  time  he 
sought  employment  with  the  Chevrolet  Division  of  General  Motors 
in  1955. 

The  witness  admitted  that  he  had  been  employed  as  an  instructor 
at  the  University  of  Buffalo  since  1959  and  noted  that  the  name  of 
the  university  had  recently  been  changed  to  "State  University  of 
New  York  at  Buffalo." 

He  was  then  shown  a  certificate  which  set  forth  certain  qualifica- 
tions for  employment  at  the  university  and  regulations  to  be  followed 
by  all  State  university  employees  under  New  York  State  law.  The 
certificate  was  dated  February  6,  1964,  and  signed  "Paul  Sporn." 

In  this  document  Mr.  Sporn  certified  that  he  had  followed 
the  instructions  as  set  forth.  He  further  certified  that  he  was  not  a 
member  of  the  Communist  Party  and,  if  he  ever  had  been,  he  had 
communicated  the  fact  to  the  president  of  the  university. 

In  his  appearance  before  the  committee,  however,  Mr.  Sporn  in- 
voked the  fifth  amendment  and  declined  to  answer  all  questions  re- 
garding this  document  on  the  groimds  that  to  do  so  might  tend  to 
incriminate  him.  He  also  refused  to  either  affirm  or  deny  testimony 
concerning  him  given  under  oath  by  Mr.  Berecz  and  invoked  the 
fifth  amendment,  among  other  reasons,  in  refusing  to  answer  questions 
pertaining  to  membership  in  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement. 

Witness  Joseph  Scioli  is  a  labor  leader  in  the  Buffalo  area.  He  is 
an  international  representative  for  the  Communist-dominated  Inter- 
national Union  of  Mine,  Mill  and  Smelter  Workers  and  has  been  em- 
ployed in  that  capacity  since  1944. 

In  testimony  before  this  committee  in  1957,  Charles  Regan  and 
Joseph  Chatley  identified  Mr.  Scioli  as  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party. 

In  response  to  committee  questions,  Mr.  Scioli  admitted  that  he 
engages  in  lobbying  activity  in  behalf  of  Mine-Mill  in  the  State  of 
New  York  and  in  Washington,  D.C.,  but  he  said  that,  to  the  best  of 
his  recollection,  he  had  never  signed  a  non- Communist  affidavit  as 
required  mider  the  Taft-Hartley  law. 

Mr.  Scioli  declined  to  answer  questions  pertaining  to  his  past  or 
present  membership  in  the  Communist  Party  on  the  grounds  that  it 
might  tend  to  incriminate  him.  Invoking  the  same  constitutional  pro- 
tection, he  refused  to  answer  questions  pertaining  to  meetings  of  labor 
leaders  in  the  Buffalo  area  at  which  Andrew  Berecz  was  present  and 
would  neither  affirm  nor  deny  meeting  with  other  Communists  in 
the  area  to  discuss  the  party's  colonization  plans. 


1522    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Edward  A.  Wolkenstein  was  the  final  witness  in  the  afternoon  ses- 
sion on  April  29.  Wolkenstein  had  been  a  witness  before  the  com- 
mittee during  its  1957  hearings  in  Buffalo.  At  that  time,  he  testified 
that  he  was  not  then  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  but  invoked 
the  fifth  amendment  and  refused  to  answer  questions  pertaining  to 
past  party  membership. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein  had  been  a  Communist  Party  colonizer  and,  with 
Mortimer  Scheer  and  Walter  Zvaleko,  had  been  expelled  from  the 
party  by  Ben  Davis  at  the  party  meeting  in  October  1961,  according  to 
Mr.Berecz.  At  that  meeting  Wolkenstein  had  been  the  first  to  speak 
after  Davis  had  delivered  the  party's  ultimatum  to  the  Erie  County 
branch.     Berecz  recalled  that : 

Mr.  Wolkenstein  said  quite  a  few  things  at  that  time.  He 
stated  tliat  he  was  born  in  the  Communist  Party  and  he 
would  like  to  die  in  it,  but  Mr.  Ben  Davis  had  other  ideas. 
He  said  he  might  have  been  born  in  it,  but  he  wasn't 
going  to  die  in  it  unless  he  fell  in  line  with  the  national 
committee. 

Confronted  with  this  testimony,  Mr.  Wolkenstein  invoked  con- 
stitutional protection,  including  the  fifth  amendment,  and  refused 
to  testify  about  liis  expulsion  from  the  Conmiunist  Party ;  member- 
ship in  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement;  or  whether  he  knew  Morti- 
mer Scheer,  Gertrude  Alexander,  and  Walter  Zvaleko  to  be  members 
of  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement. 

Seymour  Rudner,  Helen  Schwartz,  and  Walter  Zvaleko,  appear- 
ing under  subpena,  testified  at  an  evening  session  of  the  hearings  on 
April  29.  Tobias  Schwartz  was  also  called  to  testify  at  this  session, 
but  was  so  disruptive — yelling  and  denouncing  the  committee  at  the 
top  of  his  voice —  that  he  had  to  be  forcibly  removed  from  the  hearing 
room  and  his  testimony  postponed  until  the  following  day. 

Seymour  (Sy)  Rudner  is  employed  by  Health  Research,  Inc.,  a 
division  of  the  Roswell  Park  Memorial  Institute  in  Buffalo,  which  is 
en^'iired  in  research  under  contract  with  the  National  Institutes  of 
Hea.  li  of  tlie  U.S.  Department  of  Health,  Education,  and  Welfare. 

Ainliew  Berecz  stated  under  oath  that  Rudner  had  been  a  Com- 
munist Party  colonizer  in  the  Buffalo  area;  that  he  had  once  been 
emp]oy<.'d  at  t]\e  American  Radiator  and  Standard  Sanitary  Corpora- 
tion; and  that  he  had  been  a  member  of  the  same  industrial  club 
of  the  party  to  which  Mr.  Berecz  was  assigned.  More  recently,  Mr. 
Berecz  testified,  Rudner  had  been  elevated  to  one  of  the  top  posts  in  the 
Erie  Comity  branch  of  the  Communist  Party — he  was  appointed 
to  the  four-member  secretariat  selected  by  Ben  Davis  to  direct  party 
activity  in  the  BulFalo  area  following  the  expulsion  of  Mortimer 
Scheer. 

Appearing  under  oath,  Mr.  Rudner  invoked  the  fifth  amendment 
and  declined  to  answer  questions  regarding  his  educational  and  em- 
ployment background.  He  also  invoked  tlie  fifth  amendment  when 
asked  if  his  employer  was  subsidized  by  Federal  funds,  if  he  knew 
Berecz,  if  he  was  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  if  he  had  been 
appointed  to  the  secretariat  by  Ben  Davis  in  1961  and  by  Betty 
Gannett  in  1962,  if  he  was  familiar  with  the  professional  group  of 
the  Communist  Party,  and  if  the  party  and  the  Progressive  Labor 
Movement  cooperated  in  matters  involving  Cuba  and  Red  Cliina. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1523 

Helen  Schwartz,  wife  of  Tobias  Schwartz,  had  been  identified  as  a 
member  of  the  Coinmmiist  Party  by  Andrew  Berecz. 

At  a  meeting  of  the  party's  Tonawanda  Club — to  which  Mr.  Berecz 
was  assigned  following  the  dissolution  of  the  industrial  club — Mrs. 
Schwartz  was  told,  according  to  Berecz,  that  she  was  to  transfer  from 
the  Tonawanda  to  the  Professional  Club.  She  protested  the  transfer 
and  stated  that  she  wanted  to  remain  in  the  Tonawanda  Club;  that 
her  husband  was  in  the  Professional  Club  and  she  did  not  want  to  be  in 
the  same  club  with  him. 

Mrs.  Schwartz  was  questioned  about  the  accuracy  of  the  informa- 
tion supplied  under  oath  by  Mr.  Berecz.  Invoking  tlie  fifth  amend- 
ment and  other  reasons,  she  refused  either  to  affirm  or  deny  acquaint- 
ance with  Mr.  Berecz  or  her  attendance  at  the  meeting  of  the  Tona- 
wanda Club  which  was  held  at  the  home  of  Joe  Pranis  on  the  evening 
of  January  15,  1960.  She  also  invoked  the  same  reasons  when  asked 
if  she  was  then  a  member  of  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement. 

Following  Mrs.  Schwartz  the  committee  received  the  testimony  of 
Walter  J.  Zvaleko. 

Andrew  Berecz  had  identified  Walter  Zvaleko  as  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party  and  had  testified  that  Zvaleko's  open  support  of 
Mortimer  Scheer  and  refusal  to  align  himself  with  the  national  com- 
mittee in  its  dispute  with  the  Buffalo  leader  had  resulted  in  his  ex- 
pulsion from  the  party  with  Scheer  and  Wolkenstein  in  October  1961. 

Mr.  Zvaleko  invoked  the  fifth  amendment  and  other  reasons  in  de- 
clining to  answer  questions  pertaining  to  past  or  present  membership 
in  the  Communist  Party.  He  also  refused  to  testify  about  his  expul- 
sion from  the  party  or  his  acquaintance  with  Mr.  Berecz. 

Wlien  counsel  asked  if  he  was  then  a  member  of  the  Progressive 
Labor  Movement,  Mr.  Zvaleko  declared : 

The  Progressive  Labor  Movement  is  a  new  socialist  move- 
ment that  is  looking  to  solve  the  problems  of  the  American 
people,  trying  to  free  the  Negro  people  from  the  bondage  that 
they  face  in  the  South. 

The  witness  was  then  directed  to  answer  the  question.  He  invoked 
the  fifth  amendment  and  other  reasons  for  refusing  to  answer. 

On  April  30  the  subcommittee  received  tho  testimony  of  Gertrude 
and  Richard  Alexander,  Gloria  Massa,  Max  Berman,  Miroslaw 
(Marty)  Zelman,  Joseph  Pranis,  Emanuel  Freid,  and  Tobias 
Schwartz. 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Alexander  had  been  identified  by  Andrew  Berecz 
as  Communist  Party  members  assigned  to  the  party's  committee  on 
nuclear  testing.  Mrs.  Alexander  had  also  been  assigi^ed  by  the  party 
to  work  in  "VVomen  Strike  for  Peace  and  the  Women's  International 
League  for  Peace  and  Freedom.  Both  Richard  and  Gen  rude  Alex- 
ander had  supported  the  position  taken  by  Mortimer  Scht'oi  at  the 
time  of  his  expulsion  from  the  party.  Like  Paul  S})u!n,  tloy,  too, 
were  "invited"  by  Ben  Davis  to  leave  the  party  after  Mrs.  A  \c.  <ander 
questioned  Davis'  authority  to  expel  Mortimer  Scheer  at  the  v '  'tober 
1961  meeting. 

Although  the  testimony  of  the  Alexanders  was  heard  separately, 
each  of  them  invoked  constitutional  protection,  including  the  fifth 
amendment,  and  refused  either  to  affirm  or  deny  testimony  concerning 
them  given  by  Mr.  Berecz;  their  expulsion   from  the  Communist 


1524    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Party;  the  formation  of,  or  their  membership  in,  the  Progressive 
Labor  Movement. 

The  next  witness,  Gloria  Massa,  had  been  identified  by  Andrew  Ber- 
ecz  as  the  Commmiist  Party  member  who  presided  at  the  meeting  of 
the  Tonawanda  Club  held  in  the  home  of  Joseph  Pranis  on  Janu- 
ary 15,  1960.  Berecz  had  also  testified  that  Mrs.  Massa  was  present 
at  the  meeting  in  October  1961  when  Mortimer  Scheer  was  expelled 
from  the  party  and  her  husband  was  appointed  to  the  secretariat  of 
the  Erie  County  branch  of  the  party.  Moreover,  the  committee  had 
developed  information  that  Mrs.  Massa  replaced  her  husband  as  a 
member  of  the  secretariat  of  the  Erie  County  party  m  1962. 

Confronted  with  this  testimony  and  information,  Mrs.  Massa  in- 
voked the  fifth  amendment  and  declined  to  answer  questions  regard- 
ing her  membersliip  in  the  Communist  Party,  her  appointment  to  the 
Erie  County  secretariat,  the  nature  of  the  duties  she  performs  as  a 
member  of  the  secretariat,  or  the  degree  of  cooperation  between  the 
Erie  County  Communist  Party  and  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement. 

Max  Berman,  the  next  witness,  had  also  been  identified  by  Andrew 
Berecz  as  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  who  attended  the 
(3ctober  1961  meeting. 

Mr.  Berman  declined  to  affirm  or  deny  the  accuracy  of  statements 
concerning  him  in  Mr.  Berecz'  testimony. 

Other  than  to  identify  himself  by  name,  Mr.  Berman  invoked  the 
fifth  amendment  and  other  reasons  in  refusing  to  answer  every  ques- 
tion asked  by  the  committee. 

The  committee  next  received  the  testimony  of  Miroslaw  (Marty) 
Zelman,  who  had  come  into  the  Buffalo  area  as  a  colonizer  for  the  Com- 
munist Party. 

Mr.  Berecz  had  testified  about  several  Communist  Party  meetings 
he  had  attended  with  Mr.  Zelman.  Of  particular  importance  was  the 
meeting  in  October  1961,  at  which  Mr.  Zelman  was  appointed  to  the 
secretariat  by  Ben  Davis.  Since  that  date  he  had  remained  a  member 
of  that  body,  directing  party  activity  in  the  Buffalo  area,  according 
to  Mr.  Berecz. 

Mr.  Zelman  refused  to  supply  the  committee  with  any  information 
except  his  name.  He  mvoked  the  fifth  amendment  and  other  reasons 
in  refusing  to  either  affirm  or  deny  testimony  given  by  Mr.  Berecz, 
past  or  present  membership  in  the  Communist  Party,  membership  on 
the  secretariat,  or  whether  changes  in  the  secretariat  had  been  made  by 
Betty  Gannett  at  a  meeting  in  his  home. 

In  a  statement  made  prior  to  being  sworn  as  a  witness,  Joseph 
Pranis,  the  next  person  to  testify,  declared  that  he  was  a  member  of 
the  United  Auto  Workers  and  supported  the  union  in  its  stand  calling 
for  abolition  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities. 

Testimony  had  been  received  from  Mr.  Berecz  regarding  a  meeting 
of  the  Tonawanda  Club  of  the  Erie  County  Communist  Party  which 
was  held  in  Mr.  Pranis'  home  on  January  15, 1960. 

Mr.  Pranis  declined  to  tell  the  committee  if  he  had  allowed  his  home 
to  be  used  for  a  Communist  Party  meeting,  basing  his  refusal  on  the 
protection  afforded  him  under  the  Constitution,  including  the  fifth 
amendment.  He  also  invoked  constitutional  protection  in  refusing  to 
answer  questions  regarding  his  past  or  present  membership  in  the 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1525 

Communist  Party,  acquaintance  with  ]\[r.  Berecz,  or  membership  in 
the  Progressive  Labor  Movement, 

Emanuel  Fried,  a  former  official  of  the  Communist-dominated 
United  Electrical,  Radio  and  Machine  Workers  union,  had  been  identi- 
fied as  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  by  Jack  Davis  in  testimony 
before  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  in  1954  and  by 
Charles  Regan  and  Joseph  Chatley  in  1957. 

Appearing  as  a  witness  during  the  present  hearings,  Mr.  Fried 
invoked  the  fifth  amendment  and  other  reasons  in  declining  to  answer 
all  questions  pertaining  to  membership  in  the  Conmiunist  Party.  He 
also  refused,  on  the  same  grounds,  to  tell  the  committee  if  he  had  dis- 
cussed Communist  Party  techniques  as  they  apply  to  labor  groups  with 
individuals  who  had  been  identified  by  Mr.  Berecz  as  Communist 
Party  colonizers. 

After  Mr.  Fried  was  excused,  the  committee  recalled  Tobias 
Schwartz. 

Mr.  Schwartz  blamed  his  conduct  of  the  ]:)revious  evening  on  the 
stress  and  tension  of  a  long  day. 

Like  Sy  Rudner,  Tobias  Schwartz  is  employed  by  the  Roswell 
Park  Memorial  Institute  of  BufTalo,  which  is  under  contract  with  the 
National  Institutes  of  Health.  As  a  research  fellow  at  the  State 
University  of  New  York  at  Buffalo,  he  is  doing  graduate  work  in  the 
biological  sciences  on  a  grant  from  the  Roswell  Park  Memorial  In- 
stitute. Mr.  Schwartz  testified  that  he  has  been  in  "this  particular 
program  from  roughly  1958  *  *  *  ." 

The  witness  was  asked  if  the  committee  was  correctly  informed  that 
he  had  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  and,  in  1960,  was  as- 
signed to  the  Professional  Club  of  the  Erie  County  party. 

Mr.  Schwartz  refused  to  affirm  or  deny  the  accuracy  of  the  informa- 
tion, invoking  constitutional  protection,  including  the  fifth  amend- 
ment. 

In  his  summation,  Mr.  Pool,  chairman  of  the  subcommittee,  thanked 
the  members  of  several  Government  agencies  who  had  assisted  the  com- 
mittee during  these  hearings.     He  then  stated : 

The  record  of  this  hearing  speaks  for  itself.  There  are 
those  who  say  that  communism  presents  no  problem — and  no 
danger — to  the  United  States.  I  believe  that  the  facts  de- 
veloped in  this  hearing  and  the  conduct  of  the  witnesses — all 
of  them  identified  as  members  of  the  Communist  Party — are 
sufficient  to  refute  this  claim. 

Basically,  there  are  only  two  ways  of  life  in  the  govern- 
mental or  political  sphere — the  way  of  law  and  the  way  of 
the  jungle. 

Communism,  through  the  conduct  of  its  adherents  in  these 
hearings,  has  been  shown  to  be  a  throwback,  a  back-to-the- 
jungle  movement — in  other  words,  the  blackest  form  of  reac- 
tion. I  make  this  point  because  there  are  some  who  still  enter- 
tain the  illusion  that  communism  is  somehow  "progressive"  or 
"liberal." 


C03IMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  BUFFALO,  N.Y.,  AREA 


WEDNESDAY,  APRIL  29,   1964 

United  States  House  of  Representatives, 

Subcommittee  of  tiie 
Commhtee  on  Un-American  Activities, 

Buffalo,N.Y. 

PUBLIC  hearings 

A  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  met, 
pursuant  to  call,  at  10  a.m.  in  Room  704  of  the  United  States  Court- 
house Building,  Buffalo,  New  York,  Hon.  Joe  R,  Pool  (chairman  of 
the  subcommittee)  presiding. 

(Subcommittee  members:  Representatives  Edwin  E.  Willis,  of 
Louisiana;  Joe  R.  Pool,  of  Texas;  August  E.  Johansen,  of  Michigan; 
Richard  H.  Ichord,  of  Missouri ;  and  John  M.  Ashbrook,  of  Ohio.) 

Subcommittee  members  present:  Representatives  Pool,  Johansen, 
Ichord,  and  Ashbrook. 

Staff  members  present:  Francis  J.  McNamara,  director;  William 
Plitz  and  Alfred  M.  Nittle,  counsel ;  and  Louis  J.  Russell  and  Philip  R. 
Manuel,  investigators. 

Mr.  Pool  (presiding).  The  committee  will  come  to  order. 

I  first  want  to  announce  that  there  will  be  no  smoking  in  the  court- 
room. That  is  the  rule  of  the  Federal  judge  that  presides  over  this 
court,  and  there  will  be  no  smoking  in  this  room. 

This  subcommittee  of  the  House  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities  is  convened  today  in  Buffalo,  New  York,  to  conduct  hear- 
ings upon  the  subjects  of  inquiry  and  for  the  legislative  purposes  set 
forth  in  the  committee  resolution  adopted  March  4,  1964.  I  offer 
this  resolution  for  the  record.     It  reads  as  follows : 

BE  IT  RESOLVED,  That  hearings  be  held  by  the  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities  or  a  subcommittee  thereof,  at  such  times  and  places  as  the  Chairman 
may  determine,  and  that  the  staff  be  authorized  to  conduct  investigations  deemed 
reasonably  necessary  in  preparation  therefor,  relating  to  : 

1.  As  concerns  the  Buffalo,  N.T.,  area :  the  structure  and  organization  of  the 
Communist  Party  of  the  United  States;  its  major  objectives,  and  the  strategic 
and  tactical  methods  designed  to  aid  in  accomplishing  such  objectives ;  the 
major  areas  of  Communist  Party  concentration ;  the  international  conspiracy 
aspect  of  the  Communist  Party  of  the  United  States,  as  well  as  like  information 
regarding  other  Communist  organizations,  in  order  that  the  Committee  and 
Congress  may  be  informed  of  the  extent,  character  and  objectives  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  and  other  Communist  organizations  for  the  purpose  of  recommend- 
ing and  adopting  remedial  legislation  designed  to  protect  the  national  security 
of  the  country. 

2.  Any  other  matter  within  the  jurisdiction  of  the  Committee  vi^hich  it,  or  any 
subcommittee  thereof,  appointed  to  conduct  these  hearings,  may  designate. 

1527 
36-414—64 2 


1528    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

While  the  overall  objectives  of  the  world  Communist  movement  and 
the  U.S.  Communist  Party  remain  constant,  changes  occur  within  the 
movement  and  the  party,  in  the  structure  of  their  affiliated  organiza- 
tions, and  in  the  tactics  or  strategy  employed  for  the  accomplishment 
of  their  objectives.  Only  by  continuing  investigations  can  these 
changes  be  fully  determined,  the  facts  obtained,  and  legislation  devised 
to  provide  for  the  security  of  the  Nation. 

This  committee  last  conducted  a  series  of  hearings  in  Buffalo  in 
1957,  relating  to  the  activities  of  the  Communist  Party  in  this  area. 
Since  that  time,  information  has  come  to  the  attention  of  the  com- 
mittee that  certain  significant  changes  have  occurred.  Preliminary 
investigations  by  the  committee  reveal  that  in  this  city,  within  recent 
years,  there  have  sprung  up  two  new  Communist  organizations  known 
as  the  Workers  World  Party,  which  has  split  off  from  the  Socialist 
Workers  Party,  a  Trotskyite  group,  and  the  Progressive  Labor  Move- 
ment, which  has  split  off  from  the  main  or  orthodox  Communist  Party. 

For  a  time  following  the  death  of  Lenin  in  1924,  the  struggle  for 
succession  between  Stalin  and  Trotsky  created  dissension  within  the 
world  Communist  movement.  Both  had  followers  within  the  Soviet 
Union  and  outside  it.  A  major  point  of  difference  between  them  was 
that — while  both  believed  in  world  revolution — Stalin's  strategy  was 
to  give  primacy  to  the  consolidation  of  Communist  power  in  Soviet 
Russia,  while  Trotsky  emphasized  the  immediate  promotion  of  addi- 
tional Communist  revolutions  in  other  countries.  Stalin  finally  over- 
came Trotsky,  exiled  him  in  1927,  and  later,  in  1940,  had  him  assassi- 
nated in  Mexico. 

James  P.  Cannon,  a  prominent  Communist  Party  leader  in  the 
United  States,  supported  Trotsky.  As  a  result,  after  Stalin's  accession 
to  power.  Cannon  was  read  out  of  the  American  party.  Cannon  then 
formed  the  Socialist  Workers  Party  in  the  United  States,  which  fol- 
lowed Trotsky's  line  and  leadership. 

Early  in  1959,  according  to  committee  investigation,  differences 
within  the  Socialist  Workers  Party  led  certain  of  its  leaders  and 
members  to  leave  the  organization  and  form  the  Workers  World  Party, 
which,  as  I  have  said,  had  its  inception  here  in  Buffalo. 

A  more  recent  split  from  the  orthodox  Communist  Party,  which 
reflects  the  differences  between  Moscow  and  Peking  concerning  the 
tactics  to  be  adopted  by  Communists  in  conquering  the  world,  devel- 
oped here  in  Buffalo,  following  the  expulsion  in  1961  of  two  func- 
tionaries of  the  New  York  State  Communist  Party,  namely,  Mortimer 
Scheer  and  Milton  Rosen.  These  individuals  disagreed  with  the 
tactical  line  of  Khrushchev  and  advocated  more  militant  action.  They 
attracted  followers  within  the  Communist  movement  who  shared  their 
views,  and  organized  here  in  Buffalo  the  nucleus  of  another  new  Com- 
munist group,  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement,  which  now  has  its 
headquarters  in  New  York  City. 

In  committee  hearings  last  year  dealing  with  illegal  travel  to  Cuba 
by  50-odd  "students"  in  the  summer  of  1963,  it  was  revealed  that  the 
majority  of  the  leaders  of  the  group  were  members  of  the  Progressive 
Labor  Movement.  It  is  significant  that  while  in  Cuba  the  group 
visited  the  Red  Chinese  Embassy,  but  ignored  the  Soviet  Embassy. 
The  Progressive  Labor  Movement,  by  this  and  other  actions  such  as 
promoting  the  sale  of  Chinese  Communist  literature  in  the  United 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1529 

States  to  the  exclusion  of  Soviet  publications,  has  made  it  clear  that 
it  has  taken  the  side  of  Peking  in  the  current  Sino-Soviet  dispute. 

Taken  together,  these  various  Communist  groups  present  a  sub- 
stantial threat  to  the  peace  and  security  of  the  United  States.  All  of 
them  advocate  revolutionary  action  to  alter  our  constitutional  form  of 
government.  This  menace  demands  the  attention  of  the  Congress  and 
of  this  committee  which  the  House  has  mandated  to  investigate  sub- 
versive and  Communist  activities. 

I  now  oifer  for  the  record  the  order  of  appointment  of  this  subcom- 
mittee, as  follows : 

March  26, 1964. 

To  :  Mr.  Francis  J.  McNamara, 

Director,  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities. 

Pursuant  to  the  provisions  of  the  law  and  the  Rules  of  this  Committee,  I  hereby 
appoint  a  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  consisting 
of  Honorable  Joe  R.  Pool,  Honorable  Richard  H.  Ichord,  Honorable  August  E. 
Johansen,  and  Honorable  John  M.  Ashbrook,  as  associate  members,  and  myself, 
as  Chairman,  to  conduct  hearings  in  Buffalo,  New  York,  commencing  on  or  about 
Tuesday,  April  14,  1964,  and/or  at  such  other  times  thereafter  and  places  as  said 
subcommittee  shall  determine,  as  contemplated  by  the  resolution  adopted  by  the 
Committee  on  the  4th  day  of  March,  1964,  authorizing  hearings  concerning  certain 
Communist  activities  in  the  Buffalo,  New  York  area,  and  other  matters  under 
investigation  by  the  Committee. 

Please  make  this  action  a  matter  of  Committee  record. 

If  any  member  indicates  his  inability  to  serve,  please  notify  me. 

Given  under  my  hand  this  26th  day  of  March,  1964. 

/s/    Edwin  E.  Willis 
Edwin  E.  Willis 
Chairman,  Committee  on  JJn-Am^erican  Activities 

As  stated  in  the  order  here,  Mr.  Willis,  the  chairman  of  the  com- 
mittee, was  to  preside  at  this  hearing,  but  pressing  business  kept  him 
in  Washington,  and  he  has  appointed  me  to  act  as  chairman  in  his 
place. 

According  to  the  rules  of  the  House,  the  rules  forbid  televising  of 
hearings,  and  I  will  have  to  ask  that  the  television  cameras,  et  cetera, 
be  turned  off  or  removed  from  the  hearing  room. 

The  committee  has  received  a  request  from  Robert  Fleming,  attorney 
for  two  witnesses  subpenaed  to  testify  here  today,  that  the  committee 
adopt  new  rules  of  procedure  for  this  hearing.  The  committee  met 
this  morning  and  considered  the  request  and  denied  it.  The  committee 
determined  that  it  should  proceed  as  in  the  past  and  as  all  congressional 
committees  proceed — proceed  in  that  manner.  It  is  bound  by  the  Rules 
of  the  House  of  Representatives,  and  we  are  going  to  follow  them,  and 
proceed. 

A  few  minutes  ago,  the  committeemen  met  in  executive  session  and 
considered  a  request  of  a  group  of  lawyers  here,  and,  as  I  understand 
it,  they  have  selected  one  lawyer  who  would  like  to  speak  to  the  com- 
mittee, and  if  he  will  come  forward,  we  will  be  glad  to  hear  him. 

I  would  like  to  point  out  that  one  man  will  represent  all  the  lawyers 
here  and  make  his  request.  As  I  understand  it,  they  all  have  the  same 
request,  and  I  would  like  to  have  the  names  of  the  lawyers,  if  you  will 
give  those  to  the  reporter. 

Also,  I  would  like  to  ask  that  the  statement  be  brief  and  concise  and 
to  the  point. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  My  name  is  Stanley  Faulkner.  I  am  an  attorney 
from  New  York  City  and  I  represent  witnesses  before  this  committee. 


1530    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

I  also  want  to  introduce  to  the  committee  the  other  attorneys  who 
are  representing  other  witnesses  before  the  committee,  and  then  I  will 
make  my  request  to  the  committee. 

Mr.  Witt.  My  name  is  Nathan  Witt,  Post  Office  Box  156,  New 
York  City,  23,  New  York.  I  am  an  attorney  and  am  here  representing 
the  subpenaed  witness,  eToseph  Scioli. 

Mr.  Gibson.  I  am  Will  Gibson.  My  address  is  319  Main  Street, 
Buffalo,  New  York.  1  represent  the  witnesses,  Mr.  Zelman  and  Mr. 
Berman. 

Mr.  GoLLOBiisr.  My  name  is  Ira  Gollobin,  and  I  am  from  New  York 
City,  1441  Broadway,  New  York  18.  I  am  representing  Mr.  and  Mrs. 
Schwartz,  Mr.  Paul  Sporn,  and  Mr.  Zvaleko. 

Mr.  LiPSiTz.  My  name  is  Richard  Lipsitz,  120  Delaware  Avenue, 
Buffalo,  New  York.     I  represent  Joseph  Pranis,  P-r-a-n-i-s. 

Mr.  Fleming.  My  name  is  Robert  Fleming,  77  West  Eagle  Street, 
Buffalo,  New  York.     I  represent  Emanuel  Fried  and  Gloria  Massa. 

Mr.  Bradley.  My  name  is  Martin  R.  Bradley,  Jr.  My  office  ad- 
dress is  900  Ellicott  Square,  Buffalo,  New  York.  I  represent  Mrs. 
Moos. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Faulkner,  you  have  not  stated  whom  you  represent. 

Mr.  Faulkner,  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Alexander  and  Mr.  Rudner. 

Mr.  Chairman,  the  request  is  made  at  this  time  that  the  committee,  in 
the  manner  and  order  in  which  it  is  holding  the  hearing  this  morning 
in  this  courtroom  and  under  the  conditions  in  which  it  is  being  held,  is 
not  a  public  hearing,  within  your  own  rules.  I  refer  to  rule  XI,  sub- 
section 26(g),  which  states:  "All  hearings  conducted  by  standing 
committees  or  their  subcommittees  shall  be  open  to  the  public." 

Now,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  undei  stand  that  this  hearing  this  morning  is 
being  attended  by  persons  who  have  gained  admission  by  invitation. 
It  has  not  been  a  first-come-tirst-serve  operation.  I  think  that  any 
public  hearing,  to  serve  the  purpose  for  which  it  is  intended  and  which 
this  committee  has  amiounced  in  its  own  rules,  should  be  open  to  the 
public  in  the  true  sense  of  the  word.  My  opinion  is  that  this  is  not 
a  public  hearing.  It  is  violating — this  committee  is  violating  its  own 
rules. 

I  recommend  that  the  committee  go  back  into  session  and  reconsider, 
for  the  purpose  of  moving  to  a  larger  courtroom,  which  I  understand 
is  available  in  the  building,  so  that  those  people  who  want  to  attend 
can  have  the  opportmiity  to  do  so,  provided  they  are  in  line  early 
enough  to  gain  admission,  but  that  there  be  no  discrimination  on  ad- 
mission to  those  who  have  received  invitations,  either  by  members  of 
this  committee  or  by  organizations  who  have  been  given  these  invita- 
tions by  members  of  this  committee. 

I  challenge,  for  the  record,  the  committee  hearing  this  morning  as 
being  a  public  hearing.     It  is  not.     It  is  a  farce. 

[Applause  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Faulkner.  I  am  speaking  for  all  the  attorneys. 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute.  There  will  be  no  further  applause  or 
demonstration  in  this  hearing  room. 

The  committee  met  and  considered  the  request  this  morning,  and  they 
are  unanimous  in  their  agreement  that  they  feel  that  it  is  a  public 
hearing,  since  the  press,  television,  and  others  are  here,  and  no  doubt 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    EST    THE    BUFFALO,    N.T.,    AREA    1531 

some  of  your  friends  are  here  too.  What  we  heard  a  while  ago,  so  in- 
dicates.   So  the  request  has  been  denied. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  I  don't  know,  Mr.  Chairman,  whether  you  are  fa- 
miliar with  the  constitutional  rights  of  public  trial,  and  certainly  if 
this  were  a  public  trial  in  a  courtroom,  it  would  not  stand  up.  I  also 
think  that  the  minimum  that  this  committee  should  do  is  respect  its 
own  rules.  I  think  it  is  not  doing  so,  and  I  take  strong  exception  to  the 
consideration  that  this  committee  took  this  morning. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  understand  you  disagree  with  me,  and  that  is  fine,  but 
we  have  rendered  a  decision  and  we  consider  it  a  public  hearing. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  let  the  record  show  that  this  is  not 
a  public  trial. 

Mr.  Pool.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Johansen. 

I  have  already  given  you  men  the  right  to  talk,  so  I  will  go  ahead 
with  the  hearings. 

Will  counsel  proceed  and  call  your  first  witness. 

Mr.  Gibson.  I  represent  two  of  the  subpenaed  witnesses. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  will  appear. 

Mr.  Gibson.  I  think  it  was  agreed  in  the  hallway  prior  to  this  hear- 
ing that  these  requests  be  made  prior  to  the  opening  of  the  hearing. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  gave  you  the  right  to  appoint  a  spokesman,  and  you 
have  had  your  say,  and  we  have  denied  the  request. 

Mr.  Gibson.  This  has  nothing  to  do  with  the  request  that  was  jointly 
made.  It  has  something  to  do  with  the  request  I  want  to  make  with 
respect  to  the  two  witnesses  I  represent. 

Mr.  Pool.  When  they  come  before  the  committee,  I  am  sure  that  you 
will  be  allowed  to  make  your  statement. 

Mr.  Gibson.  If  the  Chair  would  listen  to  my  request,  I  think  the 
Chair  will  agree  that  this  request  can  be  made  now. 

Mr.  Pool.  It  is  not  time  at  this  time,  and  I  will  ask  counsel  to  pro- 
ceed with  calling  the  first  witness. 

Mr.  Gibson.  I  insist 

Mr.  Pool.  You  had  your  chance  to  speak,  and  your  spokesman  did 
not  bring  this  up. 

Mr.  Gibson.  This  is  a  different  point. 

Mr.  Pool.  We  will  take  it  up  at  the  proper  time. 

Mr.  Gibson.  This  is  the  proper  time.  We  would  like  to  know 
whether  this  table  is  bugged ;  is  it  bugged  ?     It  was  last  time.^ 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  proceed  with  the  first  witness. 

Mr.  Bradley.  Let  the  record  show  that  you  did  not  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  call  Andrew  Berecz  to  the  witness  stand. 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Berecz,  will  you  stand  and  take  the  oath.  Do  you 
solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this 
committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  ANDREW  J.  BERECZ 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  am  advised  tliat  this  microphone  may 
need  some  attention.     I  wonder  if  I  could  give  it  that  attention? 

_Mr.  Pool.  We  will  hold  up  the  proceedings  until  you  get  your 
microphone  fixed.     Off  the  record. 

*See  p.  1666,  chairman's  closing  statement,  i.rs.  5  and  6. 


1532    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

(There  was  a  brief  disoussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Pool.  It  has  just  been  brought  to  my  attention  that  some  radio 
microphones  have  been  placed  around  the  room.  I  will  order  that 
they  all  be  removed,  because  they  are  not  supposed  to  be  in  here.  I 
don't  know  which  one  is  which.     Counsel,  are  you  ready  to  proceed? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  ready,  and  I  am  proceeding  on  the  theory  that  there 
is  no  live  or  recording  television  apparatus  in  operation  in  the  room 
and  that  there  is  no  radio  apparatus  in  the  room,  and  I  would  like  the 
chairman  please  to  make  the  announcement  that  we  are  proceeding  on 
that  theory. 

Mr.  Pool.  That  is  the  theory  we  are  proceeding  on,  and  I  will 
caution  you,  for  the  last  time,  to  remove  any  radio  or  television  ap- 
paratus ;  that  this  hearing  cannot  be  covered  on  that.     Go  ahead. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Will  you  give  your  full  name,  please  ? 

Mr.  Bereoz.  Andrew  J.  Berecz. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Your  address  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  792  Kuie  Road,  North  Tonawanda. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  that  B-e-r-c-z  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  B-e-r-e-c-z. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  the  road  on  which  you  live  is  R-u-i-e? 

Mr.  Berecz.  That  is  correct,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  born,  Mr.  Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  was  bom  in  Hungary,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  When  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  1914,  February  28. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  When  did  you  come  to  this  country  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  1929. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  a  naturalized  American  citizen  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  When  were  you  naturalized  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  In  1936. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliere  are  you  now  employed  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  American  Radiator  and  Standard  Sanitary  Corpora- 
tion of  Buffalo,  New  York. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  How  long  have  you  been  employed  by  American 
Radiator? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Thirty-one  years. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  ever  join  the  International  Workers  Order,  Mr. 
Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  When  did  you  do  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  The  latter  part  of  '36  or  the  first  part  of  '37 ;  I  am  not 
sure,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  tell  us,  What  was  the  International  Workers 
Order  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  At  that  time,  the  International  Workers  Order  was 
one  of  those  fraternal  societies  with  insurance  and  sick  benefits. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Insurance  and  sick  benefits  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  that  the  purpose  for  which  you  joined  the  organi- 
zation ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1533 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  long  did  you  remain  a  member  of  the  organi- 
zation ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Until  New  York  State  liquidated  it. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  When  was  that? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  believe  it  was  aroimd  1950. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Did  you  ever  hold  an  official  position  in  the  IWO  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  j^osition  did  you  hold  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  was  the  financial  secretary  for  the  Hungarian  Sec- 
tion for  15  years  or  so,  from  the  time  I  joined  and  almost  until  it 
was  liquidated. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Wliat  other  positions  did  you  hold  in  the  organization? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  there  was  a  club,  that  we  called  it. 

Mr.  HiTz.  A  what? 

Mr.  Berecz.  A  club. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Club? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir.  There  were  five  different  nationalities  at  the 
club.  There  were  Hungarians,  Polish,  Ukrainians,  Russians,  and 
Czechoslovakians,  and  I  was  the  chairman  of  this  club  which  had  a 
barroom  and  different  things. 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  were  the  chairman  of  it.  How  would  you  describe 
the  club,  as  chairman  of  the  club,  and  give  its  name  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  They  called  it  the  International  Workers  Order 
Center. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  You  were  chairman  of  the  Center  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  pull  that  microphone  toward  you?  And  talk 
into  it? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Thank  you.  In  what  period  of  time  were  you  the  chair- 
man of  this  club  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  From  about  1939  until  1941. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  when  were  you  the  financial  secretary  of  the  Hun- 
garian Section? 

Mr.  Berecz.  From  about  '38  until  it  was  almost  liquidated. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Are  you  aware  of  any  contribution  by  the  International 
Workers  Order  for  the  Communist  Party,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Up  to  the  latter  part  of  '41, 1  wasn't,  sir.  In  the  latter 
part  of  '41  or  early  part  of  '42,  I  am  not  sure  of  the  year,  the  com- 
mittee that  was  formed  at  this  place  decided  that  they  were  going  to 
give  $300  to  each  one  of  the  nationality  papers.  At  this  time,  they 
also  donated  $300  to  the  Communist  Party  paper,  what  they  called 
the  Daily  Worker  at  that  time. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Now,  who  was  it  that  made  the  contribution;  I  am  not 
thinking  of  the  individuals,  but  you  say  this  organization  did ;  what 
part  of  the  organization  of  the  International  Workers  Order  did 
that? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  this  was  a  group  of  people  elected  from  each  one 
of  the  branches,  two  persons  from  each  one  of  the  nationality  groups 
that  I  named,  and  that  was  the  committee  that  then  did  this  donation. 

Mr.  HiTz.  That  is  the  committee  that  what  ? 

Mr.  Berecz,  That  gave  the  donation  to  the  papers. 


1534    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  that  come  within  your  jurisdiction  as  an  officer  of 
thelWO? 

Mr.  Bekecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  In  your  capacity  as  financial  secretary  of  the  Hungarian 
Section  or  as  financial  chairman  of  the  Buffalo  operation? 

Mr.  Berecz.  As  both,  sir. 

Mr.HiTz.  Both? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  obtained  this  donation  from  the  IWO  for  the  Daily 
Worker? 

Mr.  Berecz.  At  that  time  it  was  a  fellow  by  the  name  of  Frank 
Herron. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  that  H-e-r-r-o-n  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  know  the  spelling  of  his  name,  sir.  I  haven't 
seen  that  man  since. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  And  who  authorized  that  payment  for  the  Daily 
Worker — to  the  Daily  Worker? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  the  committee  did. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  participate  in  the  authorization  of  that  pay- 
ment? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir,  because  I  did  not  know  what  it  was.  I  did 
not  know  what  the  Daily  Worker  was  at  that  time. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Subsequently,  was  there  a  further  effort  by  the  Commu- 
nist Party  to  obtain  a  contribution  from  the  International  Workers 
Order? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  long  after  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  About  3  weeks  or  so,  they  came  down  from  the  common 
headquarters  and  they  did  not  ask  they  demanded,  $600,  and  this  is 
when  I 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Wlio  came  down  to  the  IWO  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  A  girl  by  the  name  of  Svea  Katz. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  spell  her  first  name  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I'm  not  sure. 

Mr.  HiTz.  S-v-e-a ;  does  that  sound  like  it  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  It  sounds  like  it,  but  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  The  last  name  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Katz. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  do  you  spell  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  That  is  K-a-t-z. 

Mr.HiTZ.  Wlioelse? 

Mr.  Berecz.  A  fellow  by  the  name  of  Leonard  Costa. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Would  you  give  us  an  attempted  spelling  for  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  C-o-s-t-a. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Would  you  consider  that  a  phonetic  effort  to  spell  that; 
do  you  know  what  I  mean  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  would. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  know  what  I  mean  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir,  I  do ;  but  I  don't  know  his  full  name,  the  spell- 
ing of  it. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Thank  you.  Did  anyone  else  make  this  request  or  de- 
mand upon  the  IWO  for  a  contribution  ? 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1535 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  there  were  certain  members  of  the  committee  that 
did. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  these  the  only  two  that  made  the  request  or  demand, 
as  you  have  said,  on  behalf  of  the  Communist  Party  for  a  $600  con- 
tribution from  the  IWO  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  HiTZ.  "VYliat  took  place  in  answer  to  this  request  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I,  as  chairman,  did  not  agree  with  them  and  I 
refused;  and  I  told  them  that  as  long  as  I  was  the  chairman  I  wasn't 
willing  to  give  them  money  because,  to  begin  with,  these  people  were 
never  around. 

Mr.  HiTz.  They  were  never  what  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  They  never  came  around  any  other  time,  just  when  they 
wanted  the  money,  so  I  refused,  and  the  committee  voted  that  they 
would  give  them  money,  and  I  refused  to  sign  a  check,  so  at  this  time 
they  called  a  general  membership  meeting  of  all  the  branches,  the  five 
branches  that  were  located  in  there,  and  they  expelled  me  from  the 
club,  as  a  chairman  of  the  club.  They  had  a  general  membership  meet- 
ing where  I  got  up  and  stated  that  I  was  never  a  Communist  and  that 
I  never  would  be  one. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  You  stated  that  you  were  not  a  Communist  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  That  I  wouldn't  be  one. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  that  a  meeting  of  the  committee  of  the  IWO  that 
you  were  a  member  of  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir.  It  was  only  what  they  call  a  general  member- 
ship meeting,  that  is,  all  the  members  of  each  one  of  the  branches,  the 
sections,  the  nationality  sections,  were  invited  to  this  meeting. 

Mr.  HiTz.  A  general  membership  meeting? 

Mr.  Berecz.  That  is  right,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Will  you  speak  a  little  more  slowly;  we  are  trying  to  get 
this  recorded. 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hnz.  Did  you  subsequently  receive  a  visit  from  the  Federal 
Bureau  of  Investigation? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  How  much  later  than  your  statement  of  refusal  to  sign 
the  authorization  for  the  demand  of  payment  to  the  Communist  Party 
was  this  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  made  the  statement  about  5  o'clock  Sunday 
afternoon  and  the  following  morning  I  received  a  visit  from  the  FBI. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  many  agents  of  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investiga- 
tion visited  you  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Three  of  them. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  did  they  say  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  They  asked  me  if  I  would  be  willing  to  cooperate  with 
them  on  Communist  activities  at  the  hall. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  At  what  hall  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  At  the  International  Workers  Order  Center. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliat  did  you  reply  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes. 

Mr,  HiTZ.  What  year  was  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  In  1942. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  part  of  the  year? 


1536    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Berecz.  The  latter  part  of  the  year;  I  don't  recall  the  month; 
somewhere  around  October,  somewhere  around  there,  sir;  I  don't 
recall  the  exact  month. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Now,  did  they  specify  any  particular  activity  that  they 
wanted  you  to  report  to  them  on  in  the  IWO  ? 

Mr.  Beregz.  Yes;  they  asked  me  to  report  on  Communist  activities 
in  the  Center  and  in  the  groups,  as  well. 

Mr.  HiTz.  In  the  wliat? 

Mr.  Berecz.  In  the  Center  and  in  the  nationality  groups. 

Mr,  IIiTZ.  Did  you  report  to  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  as 
they  requested  you  to  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  HiTz.  Over  what  period  of  time  did  you  report  to  them,  sir? 

Mr.  Berecz.  From  1942  to  1962, 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  make  a  further 
request  of  you,  approximately  in  1962  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  1946. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  sori-y  about  the  date.  They  did  make  a  further 
request  of  you  ? 

Mr,  Berecz,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliat  was  the  request  they  made  then  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  They  asked  me  if  I  was  invited  to  join  the  Communist 
Party,  that  I  should  join  and  start  reporting  on  the  activity  of  the 
Communist  Party  in  the  Buif  alo  area. 

Mr.HiTz.  What  partof  1946  was  that? 

Mr,  Berecz.  In  the  latter  part  of  '46,  also,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  subsequently  invited  to  join  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Hrrz,  Tell  us  who  invited  you, 

Mr,  Berecz,  A  fellow  by  the  name— who  was  the  organizer  at  the 
time,  by  the  name  of  Sam  Coleman  and  John  Touralchuk. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Is  that  spelled  T-o-u-r-a-l-c-h-u-k  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz,  Do  you  know  that  to  be  the  spelling  ? 

Mr,  Berecz,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  How  did  you  respond  to  that  invitation  to  join  the  party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  At  the  first  time  I  refused,  and  then  I  was  asked  the 
second  time,  and  I  did  join  the  Commimist  Party  in  1946. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  part  of  '46  did  you  join  the  party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  The  latter  part  of  '46 ;  I  don't  know  the  exact  month. 
It  was  later  in  the  fall. 

Mr.  HiTz,  Wliat  was  your  first  assignment  in  the  party  ?  To  what 
part  of  the  party  ? 

Mr,  Berecz,  I  was  in  what  they  called  the  Industrial  Club, 

Mr,  HiTz.  The  Industrial  Club? 

Mr,  Berecz.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  that  here  in  Buffalo  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Now,  at  that  time,  you  must  have  been  working  for 
American  Radiator ;  is  that  right  ? 

Mr,  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  belong  to  a  union  at  American  Radiator  Cor- 
poration? 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1537 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  was  the  union  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  CIO. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  more  precisely,  what  was  it  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  A  steel  union. 

Mr.HiTz.  WasittheUSWA? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  does  that  mean  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  United  Steelworkers  of  America. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  belong  to  a  particular  local  of  the  USWA  at 
that  time  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir,  1199. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  receive  a  Communist  Party  card  indicating  your 
membership,  sir? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  pay  dues  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  read  the  statement  of  allegiance  which  was  con- 
tained on  the  Communist  Party  card  that  you  received  in  1946  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliat  was  the  statement,  sir,  so  far  as  you  can  recall  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  "To  always  defend  the  interests  of  the  working  class" — 
that  meant  I  pledge  allegiance  to  the  Soviet  Union  and  all  Communist 
parties — and  to  "master"  Marxism-Leninism  and  the  program  of  the 
party,  which  in  Communist  talk  meant  I  would  violently  overthrow 
the  United  States  Government.^ 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  repeat  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  "To  always  defend  the  working  class" — which  meant 
I  pledge  allegiance  to  the  Soviet  Union  and  all  Communist  parties — 
and  to  "master"  Marxism-Leninism  and  the  party  program,  and  that 
meant,  in  Communist  talk,  I  would  violently  overthrow  the  United 
States  Government.^ 


1  For  purpoees  of  clarity,  Mr.  Berecz  asked  for  and  received  permission  to  revise  his 
answer  to  tliis  and  to  tlie  following  question.  His  original  reply  to  the  question  was  as 
follows  :  "I  pledge  allegiance  to  the  Soviet  Union.  *  *  *  i  would  violently  overthrow  the 
U.S.  Government." 

"  The  statement  which  appeared  on  the  1946  U.S.  Communist  Party  membership  card 
read  in  full  as  follows  (emphasis  added)  : 

"Rights  and  Duties  of  Party  Members 

"To  attend  club  meetings,  read  the  Party  press  and  literature,  pay  dues  regularly  and 
he  active  on  behalf  of  the  program  and  policies  of  the  Party. 

"To  at  all  times  loyally  defend  the  interests  of  the  working  class  against  the  forces  of 
fascism  and  reaction. 

"To  fight  against  all  forms  of  national  oppression,  discrimination  and  segregation,  and 
all  ideological  influences  and  practices  of  'racial'  theories. 

"To  fight  for  the  full  social,  political  and  economic  equality  of  the  Negro  people,  for 
Negro  and  white  unity. 

"To  participate  in  working  out  all  policies  and  tasks  of  the  club,  and  to  regularly  examine 
the  execution  of  such  policies. 

"To  vote  for  all  officers,  committees  and  delegates,  and  be  elected  to  any  office  or  com- 
mittee in  accord  with  provisions  of  the  Constitution. 

"To  appeal  any  decision  with  which  there  is  disagreement  to  the  next  higher  body, 
carrying  out  the  decision  while  appeal  is  pending. 

"To  strive  to  master  the  program  and  policies  of  the  Party,  the  principles  of  Marxism- 
Leninism." 


1538    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Who  was  the  chairman  and  the  organizer  of  the  Indus- 
trial Club  when  you  joined  it,  Mr.  Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Bekecz.    a  fellow  by  the  name  of  Joseph  Green. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Joseph  Green  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  did  he  live  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  lived  in  Buffalo  here. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  remember  where  he  worked  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  worked  for  American  Radiator  in  the  bonding 
plant. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  B-o-n-d-i-n-g? 

Mr.  Berecz.  B-o-n-d  Plant. 

Mr.HiTZ.  B-o-n-d  Plant? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  Mr.  Green  also  an  organizer  for  the  Industrial 
Club? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  other  members  of  the  Industrial  Club  can  you 
recall  at  this  time  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  offhand,  Hyman  Rosoff. 

Mr.  HiTz.  R-o-s-o-f-f? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  ^¥liere  did  Mr.  Rosoff  work? 

Mr.  Berecz.  American  Radiator  Company — Corporation. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  else  can  you  remember  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Milton  Kaplan  who  worked  for  Westinghouse. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  his  name  spelled  with  a  "K"  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  K-a-p-1-a-n, 

Mr.  HiTz.  Can  you  name  anyone  else  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Norman  Sternbach. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  His  name  is  spelled  S-t-e-r-n-b-a-c-h  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  did  Mr.  Sternbach  work  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  also  worked  for  the  American  Radiator  Corpora- 
tion but  in  the  Stamping  Plant. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Go  on. 

Mr.  Berecz.  Also,  Sy  Rudner  worked  for  American  Radiator  in 
the  Stamping  Plant. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  his  name  R-u-d-n-e-r? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Go  on. 

Mr.  Berecz.  Milton  Rosen. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Milton  R-o-s-e-n? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  remember  anyone  else  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Offhand,  I  don't  recall  anybody  else,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  In  this  period  of  time,  did  you  know  Diantha  Hoag  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ,  Did  you  then  Imow  where  she  was  employed  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes;  she  also  belonged  to  the  club  and  she  worked  at 
Westinghouse. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  At  that  time  did  you  know  Russell  DePasquale  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    EST    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1539 

Mr.  HiTz.  D-e-P-a-s-q-u-a-1-e ;  did  you  know  liim  then  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  vou  know  where  he  then  worked  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  believe  he  was  working  at  the  Bethlehem  Steel  Com- 
pany in  Lackawanna. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  he  a  member  of  the  Industrial  Club  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  know  a  person  named  Alexander  Salmin, 
S-a-1-m-i-n,  or  thereabouts  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wliere  did  he  work,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  also  worked  for  American  Radiator  Company  in 
the  Bond  Plant. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  know  him  in  any  other  way  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  he  belonged  to  the  Industrial  Club,  also. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Industrial  Club? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  know  anyone  working  at  the  Twin  Coach  Com- 
pany at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Who  did  you  laiow  working  there  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  A  fellow  by  the  name  of  Anthony  Massa. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Anthony  M-a-s-s-a  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  know  him  in  any  other  way  than  as  an  employee 
of  Twin  Coach? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  he  was  in  the  party  and  he  came  to  some  of  the 
meetings,  the  Industrial  Club  meetings. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  By  "party,"  what  party  do  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  The  Communist  Party  of  U.S.A. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  now  recall  names  of  any  other  members  of  the 
Industrial  Club  ^  of  the  Communist  Party  in  the  Buffalo  area  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  (No  response.) 

Mr.  HiTz.  If  you  don't,  just  tell  us  you  don't. 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  I  don't. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  How  long  did  you  remain  a  member  of  the  Industrial 
Club,  Mr.  Berecz  ? 


1  Mr.  Berecz,  contacted  by  the  committee  after  this  hearing,  advised  that  he  had  inad- 
vertently used  the  expression.  "Industrial  Club,"  In  referring  to  the  Industrial  Section  of 
the  Communist  Party  in  his  above  testimony  (pp.  1536-1540). 

Tlie  Industrial  Section,  he  added,  was  made  up  of  a  number  of  clubs,  each  composed  of 
workers  in  different  Industries  and/or  plants.  The  Bond  Club,  to  which  he  had  belonged, 
was  one  of  the  clubs  in  the  Industrial  Section.  (It  was  composed  of  part.v  members  em- 
ployed in  the  bonding  plant  of  the  American  Radiator  &  Standard  Sanitary  Corp.) 

Mr.  Berecz  further  stated  that  party  members  in  industry  and  the  individual  Communists 
that  he  had  named  on  pages  15.S6-1540  of  his  testimony  were  members  of  the  various  cluljs 
in  the  Industrial  Section,  rather  than  members  of  the  section  (which  did  not  have  members 
as  such,  although  a  number  of  party  leaders  were  assigned  to  it  as  organizers). 

With  this  clarification,  he  stated  that  Joseph  Green  was  an  organizer  for  the  Industrial 
Section  of  the  party  in  Erie  County  and  chairman  of  the  Bond  Club.  He  also  stated  that 
Hyman  RosoflP,  Milton  Kaplan.  Norman  Sternbach,  Sy  Rudner.  and  Alexander  Salmin — all 
inadvertently  referred  to  In  his  testimony  as  members  of  the  "Industrial  Club" — were 
actually  members  of  the  Bond  Club.  Dlantha  Hoag,  he  stated,  worked  at  Westinghouse 
and  was  not  technically  a  member  of  the  Bond  Club,  but  attended  its  meetings  because, 
after  the  committee's  1957  hearlnsrs  in  Buffalo,  the  Westinchouse  Club  had  been  dissolved. 

Mr.  Berecz  stated  that  Milton  Rosen,  Russell  DePasqTiale.  and  Anthony  Massa  were  all 
organizers  for  the  Industrial  Section  of  the  party.  To  his  knowledge,  they  were  not 
attached  to  any  particular  club  in  the  section  but,  as  organizers  of  it,  could  attend  meetings 
of  any  of  the  clubs  in  it. 

Mr.  Berecz'  clarification  of  his  testimony  is  substantiated  by  the  testimony  of  another 
former  FBI  undercover  informant,  Charles  Regan,  who  testified  before  this  committee  on 
the  Communist  Party's  organizational  structure  in  Erie  County  in  the  1957  hearings. 


1540    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Berecz,  Probably  I  was  a  member  of  the  Industrial  Club, 
about  12, 13  years,  or  better  than  that,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  That  would  be  until  somewhere  in  the  neighborhood  of 
1958  or '59? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hjtz.  Wliat  happened  to  the  club  then  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  at  that  time,  the  party  was  taking  some  steps. 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  party  did  what  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  It  was  taking  some  necessaiy  steps  for  security,  and  the 
club  was  dissolved ;  the  Industrial  Club  was  dissolved,  and  they  more 
or  less  set  up  what  they  called  the  community  clubs. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  know  what  caused  those  certain  security  steps  to 
be  taken  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Tell  us  what  that  was. 

Mr.  Berecz.  The  Smith  Act  and  the  McCarran  Act  and  the  registra- 
tion for  the  party. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  acts  did  they  take  that  caused  the  Industrial  Club 
to  be  liquidated  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  think  they  had  no  more  use  for  it  because  there 
wasn't  too  many  men  that  belonged  to  it,  and  I  think  that  security 
coming  in  the  club  was  their  idea.  It  was  to  cut  the  clubs  back  to 
four,  if  it's  necessary,  and  not  more  than  eight,  regardless  of  what 
happened ;  so  just  in  case,  if  a  place  where  the  meetings  was  held  was 
raided,  there  wouldn't  be  too  many  members  there. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Which  community  club  were  you  assigned  to  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  was  assigned  to  the  Tonawanda  Club. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  About  what  year  was  that,  Mr.  Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Somewhere  around  '59  and  '60;  somewhere  around 
there,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  How  long  did  you  remain  a  member  of  the  Tonawanda 
Community  Club  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  About  a  year  before  I  testified  in  front  of  the  Sub- 
versive [Activities  Control]  Board. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  When  was  that  you  testified  before  that  Board  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  In  1962,  October. 

Mr.  HiTz,  Was  the  Tonawanda  Community  Club  a  branch  of  the 
Communist  Party,  sir? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  was  it  a  part  of  the  Erie  County  branch  of  the 
Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  the  Communist  Party  at  that  time  have  any  na- 
tionality clubs  in  this  area? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Not  at  that  time;  the  nationality  club  was  started 
later. 

Mr.  HiTz,  Did  you  ever  belong  to  a  nationality  club  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  tell  us  when  that  was  and  what  sort  of  a  club 
it  was? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  a  nationality  club  was  organized  about  1961,  and 
the  idea  was  to  create  the  nationality  culture  and  background  of  the 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1541 

nationality  club,  and  this  is  to  gain  more  members  for  the  Com- 
munist Party. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  did  you  leave  the  Communist  Party,  Mr.  Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  In  1962,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  part  of  the  year  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  That  was  in  October. 

Mr.  HiTz.  During  your  membership  in  the  Communist  Part}^  were 
you  aware  of  the  movement  of  the  people  from  New  York  City  and 
thereabouts,  into  the  Buffalo  area,  who  were  members  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  have  any  name  or  expression  for  them  who  did 
that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  they  were  called  the  colonizers. 

Mr. HiTz.  Colonizers? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Can  you  name  any  of  the  colonizers  who  came  into  the 
Buffalo  area  in  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Will  you  name  some  you  can  recall  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mortimer  Scheer  was  one  who  was  the  Communist 
Party  organizer  in  this  area. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mortimer  Scheer,  S-c-h-e-e-r  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  remember  him  as  an  officer  of  the  local  Com- 
munist Party  after  he  arrived  here  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Not  after  he  arrived ;  later  on,  he  became  an  officer  of 
the  Communist  Party — The  chairman  of  the  Communist  Party  of 
Erie  County. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Of  Erie  County? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  did  Mr.  Scheer  come  here  as  a  colonizer  in  the 
party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  It  was  after  1950 ;  I  don't  recall  the  year,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  who  else  came  as  a  colonizer  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Sy  Rudner. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  know  where  he  came  from  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  As  far  as  I  know,  they  came  from  New  York. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  know  a  man  named  Milton  Rosen  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  he  depart  this  area  and  go  elsewhere  from  the 
Communist  Party  of  Erie  County  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  did  he  go  and  when  did  he  leave? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  know  the  year  when  he  left,  but  he  went  to  New 
York  to  take  a  job  with  the  Communist  Party  of  U.S.A.  as  labor  sec- 
retary in  New  York  City. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  that  the  position  in  the  New  York  State  Communist 
Party  which  he  took  after  he  left  here  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  his  departure  have  anything  to  do  with  the  work  of 
Mortimer  Scheer  in  this  area  ? 


1542    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Berecz,  Yes,  sir ;  when  lie  departed,  then  Mortimer  Scheer  took 
over  as  chairman  of  the  Communist  Party  of  Erie  Comity  in  this  area. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  did  Mr,  Scheer  work  at  this  time? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  was  working  for  some  cement  company;  I  don't 
know  the  name  of  the  company. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Cement  company  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  In  the  area  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  In  the  area. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Can  you  name  any  other  colonizers  who  came  into  the 
Communist  Party  in  this  area  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  There  was  quite  a  few  of  them  at  that  time,  sir.  There 
was  Alexander  Salmin  and  Mr.  Ingerman. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Say  that  again? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Ingerman, 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  do  you  spell  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I-n-g-e-r-m-a-n. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  remember  the  first  name  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Sid,  I  believe ;  we  always  called  him  Sid. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Sid  Ingerman.    What  other  colonizers  do  you  remember  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Edward  Wolkenstein. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  that  spelled  W-o-l-k-e-n-s-t-e-i-n  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Anyone  else  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Alexander  Sahniii ;  I  don't  know  if  I  named  him. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Yes. 

Mr.  Berecz.  Then  there  was  a  man  by  the  name  of  Marty  Zelman. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Z-e-1-m-a-n? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  Milton  Rosen  himself  a  colonizer,  sir? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wliat  is  a  colonizer  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  a  colonizer  that  came  up  here  from  New  York. 
They  are  people  well  educated  and  they  went  into  different  industries 
to  work  and  they  wouldn't  reveal  their  identity.  They  would  go  in 
steel  mills  and  every  kind  of  a  shop  to  work,  instead  of  going  to  the 
profession  that  they  actually  belonged  to. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  By  that,  do  you  mean  that  they  were  taking  positions 
that  were  not  up  to  their  capabilities  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  wouldn't  say  "up  to  their  capabilities";  they  took 
jobs  but  they  were  suited  for  better  jobs  than  they  took. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  They  were  suited  for  better  jobs  than  they  took? 

Mr.  Berecz.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Now,  by  that,  do  you  mean  that  they  were  suited  by  rea- 
son of  education  or  training  for  better  jobs  than  they  took? 

Mr,  Berecz.  I  think  they  were  trained  for  better  jobs,  yes. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  They  were  what? 

Mr.  Berecz.  They  were  trained  for  better  jobs,  and  they  took  jobs 
that  did  not  belong  to  them.  They  took  hard  labor  jobs  instead  of 
taking  the  jobs  that  they  actually  were  trained  for. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Would  it  be  accurate  to  say  that  they  were  downgrading 
their  possibilities  in  taking  the  new  jobs  as  colonizers? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  would  say  so,  sir. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y,,    AREA    1543 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Is  that  a  correct  statement  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  think  it  is. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Go  on. 

Mr.  Berecz.  Then  there  was  Walter  Zvaleko. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  that  Z-v-a-1-e-k-o  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes. 

Mr.  Pool.  We  will  have  a  short  recess. 

(A  sliort  recess  was  taken.) 

Mr.  Pool.  The  hearing  will  now  come  to  order  again. 

Counsel  may  proceed. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Berecz,  you  mentioned  Mr.  Zvaleko  as  being  a  mem- 
ber of  the  group  of  colonizers  that  you  were  naming.  Is  the  spelling 
of  his  name  Z-e-v-a-1-k-o-s  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  "Wliat  was  the  first  name  of  the  man  whom  you  recall  in 
the  colonizing  movement  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Walter. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Walter? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  do  you  sell  his  name  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Z-v-a-1-e-k-o. 

Mr.  Hii^.  No  "s"  on  the  end  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  did  Mr.  Zvaleko  live? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  know  where  he  lives,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  know  what  part  of  Buffalo  he  lived  in  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  lives  in  the  south  part  of  Buffalo,  I  believe. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  have  anything  further  to  tell  us  or  any  other 
names  that  you  can  remember  in  the  colonizing  movement  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  in  this  area  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir ;  more  names.     Paul  Sporn. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  did  he  come  from  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  New  York  City,  also. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wliere  did  he  go  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  What  do  you  mean,  "where  did  he  go,"  sir? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Well,  he  arrived  in  the  Buffalo  area;  is  that  right,  sir? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  part  of  the  area  did  he  arrive  in  and  where  did  he 
go  here  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  know  where  he  went  when  he  arrived,  and  I 
kno-f^  that  he  is  working  at  U.B.— as  assistant  professor  at  the  Uni- 
"»'orsity  of  Buffalo. 

Mr.  HiTz.  University  of  Buffalo? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  tell  us  whom  you  remember  as  organizers  of 
the  Communist  Party  while  you  were  a  member  of  the  party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  joined  the  Communist  Party  and  the  organizers  were 
Norman  Ross  and  Sam  Coleman. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  that  C-o-l-e-m-a-n  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes.  That  was  from  '46  to  '48,  and  then  there  was  a 
fellow  by  the  name  of  Johnnie  Noto. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Slow  down.     Johhnie  who  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Noto. 

36-414—64 3 


1544    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTZ.  N-o-t-o  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  else? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Russell  DePasquale,  Joseph  Green,  Milton  Rosen,  and 
Mortimer  Scheer ;  that's  up  to  '61. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  attend  a  meeting  of  the  group  of  the  members 
of  the  Communist  Party  in  Buffalo  in  the  month  of  October  1961,  Mr. 
Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Of  such  meetings,  do  you  recall  one  in  which  there  came 
two  members  of  the  Communist  Party  from  New  York  City  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  they  high  officials  of  the  party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  were  they  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Ben  Davis  and  Louis  Weinstock  from  New  York  City. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  know  what  their  positions  in  the  Communist 
Party  were  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  one  was  the  New  York  State  secretary  of  the 
Communist  Party — Ben  Davis;  and  Louis  Weinstock  was  the  labor 
secretary  of  the  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Can  you  tell  us  whom  Louis  Weinstock  succeeded  as 
labor  secretary  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Milton  Rosen. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  he  the  one  who  had  left  Buffalo  some  time  before? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliere  was  this  meeting  at  which  those  two  New  York 
officials  appeared? 

Mr.  Berecz.  The  only  way  I  know  is  a  fellow  by  the  name  of  Mc- 
Kenzie ;  it  was  at  his  house. 

Mr.  HiTz.  "Wliere  in  this  area  was  the  house;  do  you  remember? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Around  the  Humboldt  Park  section ;  I  don't  remember 
the  street  or  I  do  not  remember  the  number  of  the  house. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Will  you  tell  us  who  were  present  at  the  meeting? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  there  was  Benjamin  Davis  from  New  York, 
Louis  Weinstock,  Paul  Sporn,  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Massa. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Give  her  first  name. 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mr.  Anthony  Massa  and  Mrs.  Gloria  Massa  and  Gert- 
rude Alexander  and  Dick  Alexander. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Richard  Alexander  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir.  Edward  Wolkenstein,  Walter  Zvaleko, 
Marty  Zelman  and  his  wife. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Give  his  wife's  name  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Dottie  Zelman,  and  also  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Berman,  Bea 
Berman  and  Max  Berman. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  remember  anyone  else  who  was  present? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Walter  Zvaleko  and  his  wife.  Vera  Zvaleko,  Sy 
Rudner. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  was  the  principal  officer  of  the  Communist  Party 
of  this  area  at  tliis  meeting.  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mortimer  Scheer. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Can  you  remember  anybody  else  who  was  present? 

Mr.  Bekecz.  No,  sir. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    EST    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1545 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  Mr.  Scheer  open  the  meeting  with  any  remarks  that 
you  can  now  recall  ? 

Mr,  Berecz.  Yes,  sir.  He  opened  tlie  meeting  up  with  the  remarks 
that  Ben  Davis  presented  a  resolution  dealing  with  the  Smith  and 
McCarran  Acts  and  the  law  ordering  the  Communist  Party  registra- 
tion, and  everybody  would  be  allowed  to  talk  5  minutes  on  the  resolu- 
tion, provided  that  they  called  the  committee  of  the  Communist  Party 
of  the  area  would  have  the  first  choice. 
Mr.  HiTz.  Did  Mr.  Davis  present  his  resolution  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wliat  did  he  say  was  the  resolution  and  what  did  it 
contain  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  It  contained  the  McCarran  Act  and  the  Smith  Act 
and  registration  of  the  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  he  say  from  whence  that  resolution  came ;  did  he  say 
where  he  got  the  resolution  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  From  the  national  party  headquarters  in  New  York 
City. 
Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  he  read  it  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Hr.  HiTz.  As  best  you  can  recall,  what  did  the  resolution  say  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  it  contained  about  the  registering  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  as  a  foreign  agent  and  registering  of  its  officers  as  the 
foreign  agents. 
Mr.  Hjtz.  Under  what  provision  of  the  law,  if  any  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  The  Smith  Act  and  the  McCarran  Act. 
Mr.  HiTz.  What  did  it  say  about  the  registration  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  at  that  time,  he  just  said  that  they  will  take  it  up 
with  the  lawyers  and  decide  what  they  were  going  to  do,  if  they  were 
going  to  register  or  if  they  were  not  going  to  register. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  he  say  what  the  recommendation  of  the  lawyers 
was  with  respect  to  registering  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir,  not  over  here. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  remember  anything  else  in  the  resolution  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Also,  the  resolution  called  for  Mortimer  Scheer,  who 
had  some  disagreement — and  in  fact,  three  members  of  the  Buffalo 
area  people  had  disagreement  with  the  national  committee — and  he 
wanted  the  three  members  to  get  in  line  with  the  national  committee's 
policy  or  else  we  would  have  to  do  something  about  them. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  he  name  the  other  two  besides  Mortimer  Scheer  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir,  he  did. 
Mr.  HiTz.  Wliom  did  he  name  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  named  Edward  Wolkenstein  and  Walter  Zvaleko. 
Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  he  say  what  would  happen  to  those  three  members  of 
the  Buffalo  area  branch  of  the  Communist  Party  if  they  didn't  get  in 
line  with  the  national  policy  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  said  that  they  would  have  to  be  expelled  from  the 
Communist  Party. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  any  others  of  those  present  speak  upon  the  resolu- 
tion or  on  the  remarks  of  Mr.  Davis  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 
Mr.  HiTz.  Who  spoke  first  ? 


1546     COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Berecz.  Edward  Wolkenstein  spoke  first,  and  he  stated  that  the 
National  Committee  of  the  Communist  Party  is  the  one  that  is  ruining 
the  Communist  Party,  not  the  Erie  County  Communist  Party.  In 
other  words,  they  had  some  disagreement,  and  the  national  committee 
claimed  that  the  Buffalo  area  Communist  Party  was  the  one  that  was 
ruining  the  Communist  Party.  And  Wolkenstein  stated  that  it  wasn't 
the  Buffalo  party,  it  was  the  national  Commmiist  Party  that  was 
ruining  it,  and  the  leaders. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  remember  any  more  of  the  details  of  what  Mr. 
Wolkenstein  said  in  that  regard  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  Mr.  Wolkenstein  said  quite  a  few  things  at  that 
time.  He  stated  that  he  was  born  in  the  Communist  Party  and  he 
would  like  to  die  in  it,  but  Mr.  Ben  Davis  had  otlier  ideas.  He  said  he 
might  have  been  born  in  it,  but  he  wasn't  going  to  die  in  it  unless  he 
fell  in  line  with  the  national  committee. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  spoke  next  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  As  I  recollect,  I  think  it  was  Walter  Zvaleko  who  spoke 
next.  He  didn't  have  too  much  to  say.  He  said  he  won't  go  along  with 
the  national  committee  and  he  wasn't  going  to  change  his  attitude 
towards  it. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  recall  what  was  the  difference  between  the  policy 
of  the  national  group  as  distinguished  from  the  Buffalo  group  that 
you  were  in  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  the  national  group  took  the  idea  to  lay  back  and 
let  the  registration  business  go  by,  and  I  think  the  Buffalo  group 
wanted  a  more  militant,  more  aggressive  Communist  Party,  and  that 
is  what  they  were  dickering  for. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wlio  was  the  principal  spokesman  of  the  group  that,  you 
say,  was  the  more  militant  group  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  Mortimer  Scheer  was  the  principal  speaker. 

Mr.  HiTz.  As  leader  of  the  Buffalo  branch  in  Erie  County  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Can  you  recall  who  spoke  next  in  this  meeting? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  laiow  Mr.  Sporn  spoke,  and  he  accused  Ben  Davis  of 
not  reading  the  resolution  the  way  it  was,  but  he  was  making  up  his 
own. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  that  Paul  Sporn  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  did  he  do  when  he  said  that  he  did  not  think  that 
Mr.  Davis  was  reading  the  resolution  but  was  making  it  up  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  he  even  took  it,  he  looked  at  it,  and  lie  didn't  do 
anything  else  about  it. 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  said  he  took  it  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  From  where? 

Mr.  Berecz.  From  next  to  Ben  Davis,  and  he  was  looking  at  it.  I 
don't  know  if  he  read  the  whole  thing  or  not,  but  he  looked  at  it  anyway. 

Mr.  HiTz.  "Wliat  did  he  say  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  didn't  say  nothing. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  Bea  Berman  have  anything  to  say  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  Bea  Berman — they  all  praised  Mortimer  Scheer 
that  he  did  a  wonderful  job  in  this  area  for  the  Communist  Party,  and 
they  couldn't  see  why  the  Communist  Party  would  have  to  fire  him  as 
an  organizer  in  this  area. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1547 

Mr,  HiTz.  Was  there  a  lady  named  Lumpkin  there  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  IIiTZ.  Can  you  spell  her  last  name  and  give  us  her  first  name  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  L-u-m-p-k-i-n. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  was  her  first  name? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  only  know  her  as  Hattie;  that's  the  only  way  I  know 
her.     I  don't  know  any  other  name. 

Mr.  PIiTZ.  Did  Bea  Berman  have  anything  to  say  that  you  can  recall 
at  the  meeting? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  she  said  that  Mortimer  Scheer  did  a  good  job 
among  the  Negro  people  in  the  city  of  Buffalo  and  she  couldn't  see 
why  the  party,  say,  Ben  Davis  would  have  to  come  down  here  and 
get  rid  of  him  as  an  organizer  in  this  area. 

Mr.  IIiTZ.  Did  Hattie  Lumpkin  have  anything  to  say  to  that? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Hattie  Lumpkin  said  the  same  thing,  that  he  did  a 
good  job,  and  she  just  couldn't  understand  it.  She  had  been  in  the 
party  so  long,  and  she  was  tired  that  night,  that  she  had  picked  grapes 
all  day,  and  she  had  to  go  home  and  rest  and  think  this  over. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  Ben  Davis  have  anything  to  say  to  Bea  Berman's 
comments  about  Mr.  Scheer's  work  in  that  regard  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mr.  Ben  Davis  made  the  statement  that — I  don't  know 
how  that  statement  came  about,  but  Mr.  Ben  Davis  said  that  Mortimer 
Scheer  misled  the  Negro  people  in  this  area,  not  helped  them. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  anyone  of  the  Buffalo  or  Erie  County  group  at  this 
meeting  have  anything  to  say  in  criticism  of  their  organizer  or  their 
chairman,  Mr.  Scheer? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  there  was  only  Marty  Zelman  that  said  anything 
about  him  or  Anthony  Massa,  because  those  were  the  two  guys  that 
were  opposing  the  rest  of  the  group. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  But  did  they  say  anything  against  him  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  recall  right  now,  offhand,  sir,  what  they  said 
about  him;  they  were  discussing  it,  but  I  don't  recall  the  discussion 
on  it. 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  did  you  establish  an  approximate  day  or  date 
when  this  meeting  took  place? 

Mr.  HiTz.  He  established  the  date  as  in  the  month  of  October  1961 ; 
am  I  correct,  Mr.  Berecz? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

jSIr.  HiTZ.  What  did  Mr.  Davis  have  to  say  after  these  members  of 
the  local  group  had  spoken  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  he  asked  what  they  were  going  to  do.  Pie  was 
proud  of  Mortimer  Scheer,  and  he  was  the  guy  that  helped  him  get  his 

Mr.  HiTZ.  You  said  Davis  said  he  was  proud  of  Mr.  Scheer? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Go  ahead. 

Mr.  Berecz.  But  he  was  sorry  that  at  this  time,  if  they  didn't  fall 
in  line,  that  he  would  have  to  expel  the  three  of  them,  which  was 
Mortimer  Scheer,  Ed  Wolkenstein,  and  Walter  Zvaleko. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  what  took  place  then  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  also  invited  the  rest  that  if  they  wanted  to  leave 
with  Scheer  that  they  could  leave. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliat  took  place  then  ? 


1548    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Berecz,  Well,  there  was  most  of  the  group,  one  with  Mortimer 
Scheer  which  included  Richard  and  Gertrude  Alexander. 

Mr,  HiTz.  Let  me  interrupt  you  just  a  moment.  Do  you  recall  the 
two  Schwartzes,  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Schwartz,  being  present  at  the  meetings  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  remember  whether  or  not  Mr.  Davis  attempted 
to  get  the  feeling  and  the  views  of  the  people  present  at  the  meeting 
as  to  whether  or  not  Mr.  Scheer  and  the  other  two  should  be  expelled 
from  the  party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  more  or  less,  I  think  he  knew;  the  meeting 
went  that  they  were  sticking  with  Mortimer  Scheer,  that  they  would 
go  with  him,  and  I  think  that  is  the  reason  he  made  the  statement  if 
anybody  wanted  to  leave  with  Mortimer  Scheer,  they  could  go  with 
him. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  Mr.  Davis  propose  a  vote  to  the  assembled  company 
as  to  whether  or  not  their  expulsion  of  those  three  individuals  should 
be  carried  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Somebody  else  proposed  it;  not  Mr.  Davis,  somebody 
else  did.     I  don't  recall  who  it  was. 

Mr.  HiTz.  "VVliat  was  the  action  on  that  proposal  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  if  the  action  would  have  carried  out,  Mr.  Scheer 
would  have  stayed  on  as  organizer,  but  Mr.  Davis  did  not  go  along 
with  it. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  there  a  meeting  in  the  following  month  of  November 
1961,  attended  by  a  Communist  Party  official  from  New  York  City, 
that  you  attended  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wlio  was  the  official  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Louis  Weinstock. 

Mr.  HiTz.  IVhere  was  this  meeting  held  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  It  was  held  in  Everett  Jones'  place  on  Merrimac  Street, 
right  across  from  the  University  of  Buffalo. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wlio  was  present  at  that  meeting  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Anthony  Massa  was  there,  Marty  Zelman,  and  a  fellow 
by  the  name  of  Michael  Clune. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  was  the  purpose  of  that  meeting,  Mr.  Berecz? 

Mr.  Berecz.  The  purpose  of  the  meeting  was  the  McCarran  Act, 
the  registering  of  the  Communist  Party ;  and  they  were  on  the  dead- 
line. They  did  not  have  too  much  time  to  go.  I  think  it  was  the 
following  day  that  they  had  to  register  the  Communist  Party  as  foreign 
agents,  and  also  the  leaders  of  the  Communist  Party  would  have  to 
register,  so  he  talked  on  the  McCarran  Act  and  he  gave  the  members 
of  the  party  a  resume  of  tliat  decision  that  they  made  at  the  national 
committee,  that  they  were  not  going  to  register.  He  stated  that  they 
had  lawyers  from  all  over  the  country  and  they  were  advised  to 
register,  as  such,  but  the  committee  decided  that  they  were  not  going 
to  do  this,  and  they  were  not  going  to  register. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Instead,  what  were  they  going  to  do ;  did  he  say  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  instead,  they  were  just  going  to  let  it  go  by. 
They  were  going  to  cut  back  the  leadership  to  three — Elizabeth  Flynn, 
Gus  Hall,  and  Ben  Davis,  and  he  was  on  then  as  labor  secretary  of 
the  Communist  Party. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1549 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  Mr.  Davis  present  at  the  second  meeting  in  Novem- 
ber of  1961? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir,  just  Louis  Weinstock. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  want  to  take  you  baclv  to  the  October  meeting  of  1961 
that  you  have  told  us  about,  at  which  Ben  Davis  was  present  and  also 
Mr.  Weinstock ;  am  I  correct  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  recall  a  remark  made  by  someone  present  from 
the  Erie  County  group  which  caused  a  response  from  Mr.  Davis  to 
the  effect  that,  who  would  go  to  jail  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  nobody  made  the  remark.  He  was  asked  a  ques- 
tion on  whose  authority  would  he  fire  Mortimer  Scheer  and  he  said 
that,  in  case  they  did  not  comply  with  the  law  and  it  came  that  some- 
body would  have  to  go  to  jail,  it  wouldn't  be  Mortimer  Scheer  who 
would  go  to  jail,  but  it  would  be  him,  Gus  Hall,  Elizabeth  Flynn,  that 
would  have  to  go  to  jail. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Davis  said  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  To  whom  did  he  say  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  he  said  it  to  the  group. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Had  Sclieer  just  said  something  that  caused  that  remark 
from  Mr.  Davis  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.HiTz.  What  was  that? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  recall  the  remark  that  he  made  to  him. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  anyone  present  at  this  October  1961  meeting  contest 
the  right  of  Mr.  Davis  to  write  out  of  the  Conmiunist  Party  the  three 
individuals  whom  he  had  named  as  being  ones  who  were  working 
against  the  national  policy  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  there  was  Gertrude  Alexander  who  questioned 
Mr.  Davis'  authority. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Explain  what  was  said  that  caused  her  to  question  the 
authority  and  what,  in  turn,  was  said  back  to  her  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  there  was  quite  a  few  things  said.  To  begin  with, 
she  wanted  to  know  why  they  couldn't  wait  so  the  Communist  Party 
would  have  a  conference  or  convention  to  get  rid  of  Mortimer  Scheer 
as  an  organizer  in  this  area,  and  Mr.  Davis  made  the  statement  on  this 
that  it  might  be  a  day,  maybe  a  week,  1  year,  maybe  5  years,  or  maybe 
never  that  they  would  have  a  convention,  and  that  is  why  he  is  here 
to  do  this  job,  and  he  is  going  to  do  it. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  what  job  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  To  expel  Mortimer  Scheer,  because  he  works  against 
the  national  committee. 

Mr.  HiTz.  To  that,  did  Gertrude  Alexander  have  anything  to  say ; 
did  she  question  Mr.  Davis'  authority  to  say  what  he  had  said  and  to 
do  what  he  said  he  might  do  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  she  wanted  to  know  on  what  authority  he  would 
do  this,  and  Mr.  Davis  said  he  was  the  boss  and  he  is  going  to  do  it, 
he  was  going  to  expel  the  three  of  them.  He  announced  it  at  the  meet- 
ing that  they  were  expelled  from  the  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  And  did  he  then  make  some  remarks  concerning  Mr. 
Sporn  and  the  two  Alexanders  ? 


1550    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  he  made  the  remark  that  if  anybody  wanted  to 
leave,  they  can  leave  with  Mortimer  Scheer  and  Mr.  Wolkenstein  and 
Walter  Zvaleko. 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  remained  in  the  party  after  that  in  this  area,  sir? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Up  to  that  time,  v/ere  you  in  any  group  in  the  Erie  County 
party  with  Mr.  Wolkenstein,  Mr.  Scheer,  Mr.  Zvaleko  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  was  only  in  the  Communist  Party  with  them. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  any  of  those  three  again  appear  at  a  Communist 
Party  meeting  in  this  area  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Not  to  my  knowledge,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  Mr.  Sporn? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Not  to  my  knowledge ;  I  haven't  seen  him. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  or  Mrs.  Alexander  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  recall  whether  or  not  some  months  before  the  two 
meetings  that  you  have  told  us  about,  in  October  or  November  of  1961, 
the  Communist  Party''-  case  had  been  considered  and  decided  in  the 
Supreme  Court ;  do  you  know  what  I  mean  by  the  Communist  Party 
case  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  that  was  the  case  in  front  of  the  Subversive 
Board. 

Mr.  PIiTz.  That  is  the  one  I  am  referring  to.  Are  you  aware  of  that 
case? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Had  it  been  decided  some  time  shortly  before  the  two 
meetings  in  October  of  1961  about  which  you  have  testified? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Plow  do  you  mean,  sir,  was  it  "decided"  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Had  there  been  a  Court  decision  prior  to  the  meeting  of 
October  1961,  in  which  registration  of  the  party  and  the  members  of 
the  party  was  discussed  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  You  told  us  that  you  joined  the  party  in  1916  in  this 
Buffalo  area ;  is  that  correct,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  recall  in  1950  the  Internal  Security  Act  was 
passed  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  remember  that  it  was  passed  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  changes,  if  any,  in  the  security  measures  taken 
by  the  members  of  the  Communist  Party  took  place  after  the  passing 
of  the  Internal  Security  Act  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Oh,  they  more  or  less  went  underground  and  they 
stayed  underground.  They  would  only  meet  at  certain  places  and 
not  more  than  four  at  a  time,  or  if  there  was  any  more  than  that, 
well,  it  was  at  a  private  home  most  of  the  time. 

Mr.  HiTz.  In  what  fashion  were  the  names  of  the  members  of  the 
party  recorded  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  When  you  pay  dues  or  something,  you  use  numbers 
or  they  just  use  your  nationality  or  how  long  you  ha^  e  been  in  the 
party  or  the  union  afliliations  that  you  were  tied  up  with. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1551 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  means  by  which  the  literature 
of  the  Communist  Party  was  distributed  in  the  Bullalo  area  while  you 
were  a  member  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  is  it  distributed  t 

Mr.  Berecz.  For  the  security  of  the  party,  they  used,  the  paper 
used  to  come  to  one  post  office  box  and  one  person  handled  it,  and 
it  was  taken  to  their  clubs  and,  when  the  members  got  it,  they  put  it 
in  brown  paper  bags,  and  tliat  is  the  way  it  got  delivered. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  what  you  have  said  also  applicable  to  the  receipt  in 
this  area  of  the  Daily  Worker? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  At  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  was  in  charge  of  the  receipt  of  the  literature  within 
the  Communist  Party  in  the  latter  part  of  1961  ? 

]Mr.  Berecz.  I  was  told  that  Paul  Sporn  was  the  literature  and  edu- 
cational director  of  the  Communist  Party  of  Erie  County. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  And  who  was  in  charge  of  the  receipt  of  the  Communist 
Party  literature  in  the  area  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mortimer  Scheer. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  he  in  charge  of  that  at  the  time  of  the  meeting  in 
October  19G1  at  wdiich  he  was  read  out  of  the  Communist  Party  by 
Mr.  Davis? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Up  until  that  time,  yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  just  exactly  how  did  you  receive  that  mail  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  had  a  post  office  box  at  the  post  office,  and  that's 
how  he  received  it,  and  at  this  meeting,  from  then  on,  the  Daily 
'Worker  and — and  the  following  meeting  which  we  had  with  Mr. 
Weinstock,  it  was  stated  how  bad  it  was  for  Mortimer  Scheer  that 
he  did  not  distribute  the  Daily  Worker  to  the  members  of  the  party  in 
this  area  when  it  was  held  in  a  post  office  box. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  he  have  a  key  to  the  box  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mortimer  Scheer  did,  yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  he  was  expelled  from  the  Communist  Party,  did 
he  turn  the  key  over  to  the  party  or  any  of  its  officials  right  away  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  did  that  cause? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  it  caused  a  lot  of  disturbance,  because  the  paper 
wasn't  received  then  or  the  literature. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  they  finally  get  the  key  away  from  Mr,  Scheer  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir ;  we  gave  up  the  mail  box. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  happened  to  ih&  Daily  Worker? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  know  what  they  did  with  it. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  it  continue  to  arrive  in  this  area  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  After  that,  yes. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  recall  the  nam.es  of  any  persons  assigned  to  the 
youth  work  of  the  Communist  Party  in  Erie  County  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  There  was  Mortimer  Scheer  assigned  to  it.  He 
handled  the  youth,  and  Anthony  Massa  handled  it  for  a  while.  There 
were  different  people  assigned  to  that  group  of  work. 

Mr.  HiTz.  At  tlie  time  that  you  left  the  party  in  1962,  were  you 
aware  of  the  strategy  of  the  party  with  i-espect  to  assignments  within 
the  youth  movement  ? 


1552    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  they  talked  about  it,  but  it's  never  gotten  any- 
place, never  got  off  the  ground. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wlien  you  left,  were  you  aware  of  any  efforts  to  teach 
among  the  youth  Marxist-Leninist  principles  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir ;  that  was  the  idea,  to  get  into  the  youth  group 
and  try,  not  right  away — work  yourself  in  and  try  to  teach  Marxist- 
Leninist  ideas  to  them. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  they  make  any  efforts  to  accomplish  this  in  the  latter 
part  of  the  time  that  you  were  a  member  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  They  tried  several  times,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  In  what  way  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  trying  to  get  into  different  organizations  like  the 
peace  movement,  fair  housing,  racial  matters;  they  tried  to  get  into 
all  these  organizations.  They  claimed  to  help,  but  their  idea  was  to 
get  in  there  and  then  advocate  the  communistic  ideas. 

Mr.  Hjtz.  Were  you  familiar  in  the  party,  in  the  latter  part  of  your 
membership  in  the  party,  with  the  way  in  which  the  party  sought  to 
handle  the  matter  of  disarmament  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  They  had  a  coimnittee  on  it,  that  tliey  should  stop 
nuclear  bomb  tests,  and  different  things  like  that.  They  had  a  com- 
mittee working. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  recall  Mr.  Weinstock  from  New  York  City  speak- 
ing to  the  Communist  Party  members  of  this  area  on  that  subject? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  recall  about  it,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  efforts  did  the  Commmiist  Party  in  this  area  en- 
deavor to  take  with  regard  to  nuclear  testing  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  they  also  had  a  committee  which  consisted  of 
Gertrude  Alexander  and  Eichard  Alexander  and  Abe  Copperman 
and  Ann  Copperman.  Ann  Copperman  and  Abe  Copperman  lived 
in  what  they  called  the  Sheridan  project,  and  they  were  passing  out 
leaflets  and  they  were  pressing  them  on  just  when  Russia  exploded 
a  50-megaton  bomb.  And  they  got  kind  of  peeved  that  they  were 
passing  out  leaflets  to  stop  it,  and  Russia  went  ahead  and  exploded 
the  bomb.  And  from  that  time  on,  they  weren't  such  good  members 
of  the  Connnunist  Party.  They  said  that  Khrushchev  hollered  to 
stop  it  and  then  he  went  ahead  when  the  United  States  stopped  it, 
and  then  he  went  ahead  and  exploded  it,  and  they  claimed,  they 
claimed  he  was  untrustable. 

Mr.HiTZ.  Who  said  that? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Abe  Copperman  and  Ann  Copperman,  and  they  wanted 
to  know  from  Mr.  Massa,  why  did  he  do  that ;  and  Massa  answered 
him  that  he  couldn't  give  him  an  answer  that  day,  but  he  will  give  it 
whenever  they  get  in  touch  with  somebody  from  New  York,  and  they 
will  tell  us.  So  a  couple  of  weeks  later,  he  [Massa]  told  us  that  Khru- 
shchev said  that  the  free  nations  were  against  him  and  that  they  were 
doing  it  in  secret  and  that  is  why  he  had  to  test  the  50-megaton  bomb. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Were  any  members  of  the  Communist  Party  in  Erie 
County  assigned  to  work  with  the  Women  Strike  for  Peace? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  they  were. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  the  Women's  International  League  for  [Peace  and] 
Freedom  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir.     They  were  in  that  grou]). 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  were  assigned  to  assist  in  that  work  ? 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    EST    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1553 

Mr.  Berecz.  To  my  recollection,  Bea  Berman,  Rose  Touralchuk, 
Mrs.  Zelman,  old  Mrs.  Zelman — I  do  not  know  her  first  name. 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  senior  Mrs.  Zelman  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  Gertrude  Alexander  engaged  in  that  work  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  the  Erie  County  Communist  Party  assume  any  at- 
titude with  respect  to  the  Vietnam  and  Cuba  problems  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  they  just  advocated  giving  a  free  hand  to  Cuba, 
that  they  are  doing  the  right  thing,  and  that  the  United  States  should 
not  interfere  with  them  at  all. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  as  to  Vietnam  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  don't  know  too  much  about  that. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr,  Berecz,  did  you  ever  find  yourself  at  a  meeting  of 
a  group  of  the  Erie  County  Communist  Party  at  which  you  were 
the  only  man  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  did  that  come  about  and  where  did  it  happen  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  was  assigned  to  the  Tonawanda  Club,  and 
at  the  time  that  the  meeting  was  held 

Mr.  HiTz.  Slow  down,  please.     At  the  Tonawanda  Club  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir.  And  Mrs.  Massa  told  me  about — Gloria 
Massa  told  me  about  the  meeting  and  asked  me  if  I  wanted  to  go,  and 
I  said,  "Yes,"  and  we  went  to  Joe  Pranis'  home  off  Sheridan  Drive 
some  place;  I  don't  Imow  the  street,  and  there  was  a  meeting  held 
there  for  the  Tonawanda  Club,  and  I  was  the  only  male  person  at 
the  place  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Hjtz.  Wlio  presided  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mrs.  Massa. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  many  ladies  were  present  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  believe  there  were  four  or  five. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  Helen  Schwartz  there  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  she  the  wife  of  Tobias  Schwartz,  also  known  as 
Ted  Schwartz  ? 

Mr.  Berecz,  Well,  I  only  know  him  as  Schwartz,  that's  the  only 
way  I  know  him. 

Mr.  HiTz,  Was  Mr.  Pranis  at  home  that  evening  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliere  was  he  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Working. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Wliere? 

Mr.  Berecz.  At  the  General  Motors  Chevy  Plant. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  there  a  discussion  held  at  that  time  as  to  the  assign- 
ment within  the  party 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  — of  Helen  Schwartz  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  said  it  and  what  was  said  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mrs.  Massa  told  her  that  she  would  have  to  go  into  the 
Professional  Club,  what  they  called  a  Professional  Club  of  the  Com- 
munist Party,  and  she  stated  that  she  did  not  want  to  go  in  there  be- 


1554    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

cause  her  husband  was  in  there  already  and  sh.e  did  not  want  to  be  in 
the  same  chib  with  her  husband. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Berecz,  what  caused  Mr.  Schwartz  to 
be  in  the  Professional  Club  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Berecz,  do  you  know  Vvhat  group  Helen  Schwartz 
was  assigned  to  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  she  was  assigned  to  the 
Professional  Club  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  know  what  happened  to  her  after  that. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  this  would  be  an  appropriate  time  to  break, 
as  you  had  asked  me  to  suggest  to  you. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  committee  will  stand  in  recess  until  2  o'clock. 

( Wliereupon,  at  12 :30  p.m.,  Wednesday,  April  29, 1964,  the  subcom- 
mittee recessed,  to  reconvene  at  2  p.m.  the  same  day.) 

AFTERNOON  SESSION— WEDNESDAY,  APRIL  29,  1964 

(The  subcommittee  reconvened  at  2  p.m.,  Hon.  Joe  R.  Pool,  chairman 
of  the  subcommittee,  presiding) . 

(Subcommittee  members  present:  Eepresentatives  Pool,  Johansen, 
Ichord,  and  Ashbrook. ) 

Mr.  Pool.  The  subconnnittee  will  be  in  order. 

Mr.  Berecz,  you  are  still  under  oath  and  counsel  will  proceed  with 
questions, 

TESTIMONY  OF  ANDEEW  J.  BEBECZ— Sesiimed 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Berecz,  you  testified  before  the  Imicheon  recess  that 
you  attended  a  Communist  Party  meeting  of  the  Erie  County  branch 
in  October  of  1961,  attended  by  Mr.  Davis  of  the  party,  coming  from 
New  York,  and  also  jMr.  Weinstock,  and  that  certain  things  occurred 
there  resulting  in  Mr.  Scheer's,  l^Ir.  Wolkonstein's,  and  Mr.  Zvaleko's 
expulsion  from  the  party  and  certain  other  ones  whom  you  named  being 
told  that  if  they  did  not  like  the  expulsion  of  the  others,  they  could 
leave,  too.  You  also  mentioned  a  number  of  others  who  were  present 
at  that  time,  at  that  meeting  and,  as  to  some  of  them,  what  they  said 
that  you  could  recall.  Among  those  persons,  you  named  Bea  and  Max 
Berman,  Marty  and  Dottie  Zelman,  Tony  and  Gloria  Massa,  Sy 
Rudner,  and  some  others,  including  a  m.an  named  Paul  Sporn.  Do  you 
recall  that  testimony  this  morning  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  that  the  last  time  you  were  at  any  Communist  meeting 
that  you  saw  Paul  Sporn  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Yfould  you  tell  us  whether  you  had  ever  seen  him  before 
at  a  Communist  Party  m.eeting  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  had  one  occasion  to  see  him  where  he  was  pointed  out 
to  me.  I  did  not  know  Mr.  Sporn  up  to  that  time.  Mr.  Tony  Massa 
pointed  him  out  to  me. 


COM^SIUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1555 

Mr.  IIiTz.  Just  a  moment.  Let's  try  and  place  this  in  time.  How 
much  before  the  October  19G1  meeting  was  it  that  you  saw  Mr.  Sporn 
for  the  tirst  time? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Just  a  couple  of  weeks. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  sort  of  a  gathering  was  it  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  it  was  on  the  same  question,  the  Communist  Party 
had  troubles. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  kind  of  a  gathering  was  it ;  who  was  there  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  party  members. 

Mr.  IIiTZ.  Was  it  a  closed  party  meeting  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Tell  us  who  was  there  and  where  it  was. 

]Mr.  Berecz.  It  was  at  Levine's,  Louis  Levine's  house  on  Grant  Street 
some  place. 

Mr.  IIiTz.  L-e-v-i-n-e  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Can  you  name  some  of  those  who  were  there  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  remember  Mr.  Massa  being  there  with  me,  be- 
cause he  Vv-as  with  nxe,  and  Mr.  Zelman  was  there.  I  don't  recall  some 
of  them. 

Mr.  HiTz.  With  whom  did  you  go  to  this  meeting? 

Mr.  Berecz.  With  Mr.  Massa. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Tony  Massa  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Who  was  head  of  the  party  in  the  Erie  County  area  at 
that  time  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Who  was  what,  sir? 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  head  of  the  party. 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mortimer  Scheer. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  he  there  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  name  others  whom  you  may  recall  as  being 
there? 

Mr.  Bepxcz.  I  don't  recall  any  more  names. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  Mr.  Sporn  there  ? 

Mr .  B  ere  c  z .  Yes ,  s  i  r . 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  have  already  said  that  when  you  next  before— and 
the  only  other  time  was  the  October  meeting,  that  you  ever  did  see 
him ;  is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Eight. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  was  discussed  at  the  meeting  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  don't  recall  really  what  it  actually  was,  but  it  was 
the  future  of  the  Communist  Party  in  this  area. 

Mr.  Ilrrz.  Was  anything  discussed  with  reference  to  the  party 
policy  that  you  all  understood  was  being  made  in  New  York  City? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir,  that  was  on  the  same  project. 

]Mr.  HiTz.  That  there  was  a  conflict  between  the  policy  here  and 
the  policy  of  the  national  committee? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  And  New  York  City  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.    Yes,  sir. 


1556    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  that  discussion  on  the  same  subject  that  resulted 
later,  in  October  1961,  in  the  expulsion  of  Mr.  Scheer,  Mr.  Wolken- 
stein,  and  Mr.  Zvaleko  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Was  any  attack  made  upon  Mr.  Scheer  and  his  policy  in 
the  Erie  County  branch  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Not  that  I  recall,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  any  defense  made  of  his  policy  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  they  are  always  defending  his  policy  in  this 
area. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  see.    And  you  say  Tony  Massa  pointed  him  out  to  you? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  because  I  did  not  know  Mr.  Sporn.  I  heard  about 
Mr.  Sporn,  so  I  asked — I  did  not  know  him,  and  Tony  Massa  showed 
me  who  he  was. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  In  what  fashion  was  Mr.  Sporn  pointed  out  to  you ;  by 
that  I  mean,  what  caused  the  designation  of  Mr.  Sporn  in  the  conversa- 
tion you  had  with  Mr.  Massa  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  being  a  literature  director  and  educational  di- 
rector of  the  party  here,  I  heard  members  talking  about  him,  so  I 
asked  who  he  was.  I  did  not  know  the  man  personally,  so  I  asked  for 
him  to  be  pointed  out  to  me. 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  asked  that  of  whom  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mr.  Massa. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  did  he  say  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  pointed  him  out  to  me. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Getting  on  to  a  slightly  different  subject,  you  have  told 
us  about  the  expulsion  of  Mr.  Scheer  from  the  party  at  this  October 
expulsion  meeting  in  1961.  "V\nio  succeeded  in  the  operation  of  the 
party  in  the  Erie  County  branch  after  that  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mr,  Davis  appointed  Tony  Massa,  Marty  Zelman,  Sy 
Rudner,  and  Hattie  Lumpkin,  and  I  don't  recall  the  rest  who  was  there. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  mention  Marty  Zelman  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  Hattie  Lumpkin  accept  the  nomination  as  one  of  the 
officers  in  the  area  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  she  did  not. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  this  designation  of  these  three  or  more  persons — 
there  were  three,  were  there  not — designations  made  by  Mr.  Davis? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Four,  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  HiTz.  To  run  the  party  in  Erie  County  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Was  this  a  new  concept  of  management  of  the  branch 
from  what  it  had  been  before  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Before  that,  it  had  been  an  organization  operated  and 
run  by 

Mr.  Berecz.  Scheer,  and  then  the  secretariat  was  formed  with  four 
people. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Repeat  the  last. 

Mr.  Berecz.  The  four  people  would  be  the  head  of  the  party,  and 
they  would  be  running  the  policy  of  the  party  in  the  Erie  County  area. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1557 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Prior  to  that,  there  had  been  a  single  chairman ;  had  there 
not? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  And  that  was  Scheer,  immediately  preceding  these  four? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Up  until  the  time  that  you  left  the  party  in  1962,  was  this 
group  of  persons  running  the  party  in  the  Erie  County  branch  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  there  were  some  changes  made  when  Mr.  Patter- 
son came  down  here  from  New  York,  and  he  took  Anthony  Massa  out 
of  the  secretariat,  because  the  national  committee  thought  that  Tony 
Massa  was  antagonistic  with  some  of  the  members  and  they  were  los- 
ing some  members,  so  they  said,  "Take  him  off  from  the  secretariat," 
and  they  replaced  him  with  somebody  else. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  know  what  Mr.  Patterson's  position  in  the  party 
wn  sat  that  time? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  know  that  he  was  a  secretary  of  New  York  State. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  know  whether  he  held  a  national  office  in  the 
Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  think  that  was  the  New  York  State  secretary. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  see.  Just  one  question.  I  have  to  go  back.  You  men- 
tioned that  the  Industrial  Club  to  which  you  belonged  in  1946  until 
about  1958  or  '59  finally  had  a  reduced  membership  prior  to  your  being 
assigned  to  the  Tonawanda  neighborhood  club;  am  I  correct  in  that? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  was  the  greatest  number  of  members  that  the  In- 
dustrial Club  had  while  you  were  a  member  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  About  20  people. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Can  you  tell  us  what  caused  the  reduction  in  its  member- 
ship that  resulted  in  the  change  in  policy  to  neighborhood  clubs  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  that  was  the  change  of  policy  of  the  party,  when 
the  party  was  under  attack,  so  they  were  doing  away  with  big  clubs, 
they  were  forming  the  community  clubs. 

Mr.  HiTz.  In  1957,  Mr.  Berecz,  were  you  named  as  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party  in  the  Erie  County  branch,  in  a  hearing  before  the 
Un-American  Activities  Committee  right  here  in  Buffalo  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wlio  identified  you  in  1957  as  a  member  of  the  party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Mr.  Charles  Regan. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  R-e-g-a-n  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  that  a  public  hearing,  public  testimony  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  that  the  first  public  identification  as  a  member  of 
the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Publicly ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  an  ideological  member  of  the  Communist 
Party  at  the  time ;  do  you  know  what  I  mean  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir,  I  never  was,  and  that  is,  I  never  was  an 
idealist. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  asked  you,  Do  you  know  what  I  mean  by  an  ideological 
member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  I  know. 


1558    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr,  HiTz.  You  were,  up  to  tliat  time,  in  the  Communist  Party  arf 
a  member  at  the  request  of  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  At  this  time,  I  am  speaking  now  of  1957  when  you  were 
identified,  and  by  the  way,  can  you  give  us  the  month  of  the  year? 

Mr.  Beekcz.  October  or  September ;  one  of  tliose  months. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Late  in  the  year  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  doing  any  community  work  wholly  apart  from 
your  Communist  Party  work  at  this  time? 

Mr.  Berecz.  You  mean  on  my  own  ? 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Were  you  a  Scoutmaster  for  the  Boy  Scouts  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  How  long  had  you  been  in  195T  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  took  the  group  in  1957  and  I  was  in  it  until  1962. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Were  you  active  in  your  church  work  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  After  you  were  publicly  identified  as  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party,  did  you  make  any  effort  to  square  yourself  with 
those  you  knew  or  who  knew  you,  to  the  extent  that  you  stated  to 
anyone  that  you  were  not  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ideologi- 
cally, but  that  you  were  working  in  the  Conniiunist  Party  for  the  Fed- 
eral Bureau  of  Investigation  and  for  your  country  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  did  not  go  into  why  I  was  working.  I  went  to  the 
priest  and  told  him,  as  a  Catholic,  I  told  them  that  I  wasn't  a  Com- 
munist, that  I  was  doing  a  job  and  maybe  in  a  year's  time,  I  could  tell 
them.  At  that  time,  I  could  give  them  no  more  information,  and 
I  did  not. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  do  anything  with  respect  to  remaining  as  a  Scout- 
master in  your  community  after  your  public  identification? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  offered  to  resign,  and  they  told  me  I  shouldn't 
resign,  but  I  should  stay  on  as  Scoutmaster. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  A]id  did  you  stay  on  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Berecz,  do  you  have  children  ? 

Mr.  Berkcz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Httz.  How  many  do  you  have  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Two  boys. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  old  are  they  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  One  is  23  and  one  is  18. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  they  go  to  school  in  this  area  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.    Yes. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Where  do  they  go  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  One  goes  to  State  Teachers  College  and  one  goes  to 
Niagara  Falls  to  Community  College. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  one  of  them  go  to  the  University  of  Buffalo  until 
recently  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  He  Avas  there  for  a  half  year. 

Mr.  Hnz.  At  the  time  in  1957  when  you  were  identified  publicly  as 
a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  did  you  inform  your  children  that 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1559 

you  had  been  in  the  party  only  at  the  request  of  the  Federal  Bureau 
of  Investigation  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  PIiTZ.  You  told  your  children  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  tell  your  wife  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  HiTz.  She  knew  it  before  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  My  wife  knew  it  right  from  the  beginning. 
Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  tell  anyone  else  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Did  you  ever  suffer  any  hardship  or  problems  as  the 
result  of  the  public  identification  and  your  failure  or  refusal  to  make 
known  that  you  were  working  for  the  FBI  when  you  were  doing  this? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  were  the  problems  that  arose  in  that  regard  ? 
Mr.    Berecz.  From   neighbors   and    from   other   people,   as   they 
thought  I  was  actually  belonging  to  the  Communist  Party,  and  they 
were  kind  of  hard  on  us,  thinking  that  we  were  actually  Communists. 
Mr.  Hrrz.  How  long  did  you  remain  in  that  situation,  that  is,  not 
divulging  publicly  that  your  membership  in  the  Communist  Party 
was  at  the  request  of  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation? 
Mr. Berecz.  Pardon? 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  long  did  you  remain  in  that  situation,  not  telling 
people  that  your  membership  in  the  Communist  Party  was  at  the 
request  of  the  FBI  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Right  from  1042  to  1962. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  am  sorry.    I  did  not  make  myself  clear.     You  were 
identified  in  1957 ;  right  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Right. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  You  did  not  make  known,  except  to  your  wife  who  al- 
ready knew  and  your  children  whom  you  then  told,  that  you  were  a 
member  of  the  Communist  Party  working  for  the  FBI ;  right  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Right. 
Mr.  HiTz.  You  told  no  one  else  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  No  one  else. 

Mr.  PIrrz.  And  by  the  way,  when  you  spoke  to  your  priest,  did  you 
tell  him  that  you  were  working  for  the  FBI  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Only  that  you  would  tell  him  later  what  the  situation 
really  was  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  HiTz.  How  long  did  that  persist  ? 
Mr.  Berecz.  Five  years. 
Mr.  HiTZ.  What  took  place  5  years  after  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  was  called  to  testify  in  front  of  the  Subversive  Board 
in  New  York  City. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  that  the  Subversive  Activities  Control  Board  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  A  Federal  board  having  to  do  with  inte;  iial  secirity  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  created  by  the  act ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

36-414—64 4 


1560    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTZ.  When  did  you  first  testify  before  the  Board  ? 

Mr.BERECz.  1962,  October  the  5th. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  testify  in  three  proceedings  before  the  Board, 
one  of  them  concerning  when  you  testified  about  Betty  Gannett,  Louis 
Wein  stock? 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  he  testified  in  1962  or  '63  ? 

Mr.  Hrrz.  You  said  in  1962  you  testified  on  tliree  occasions  before 
the  Subversive  Activities  Control  Board,  in  the  third  case,  involving 
William  Patterson ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Patterson,  the  first  case,  Betty  Gannett  and  Weinstock. 

Mr.  HiTz.  In  that  order  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.HiTz.  All  in  1962? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  At  that  time,  were  they  public  hearings,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  they  proceedings  that  were  brought  by  the  Attorney 
General,  again  before  the  S ACB  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  They  were  public  hearings  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  it  brought  out  then  that  your  membership  in  the 
Communist  Party  from  1946  until  that  time  was  at  the  request  of  the 
Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  that  the  first  time  that  that  was  publicly  disclosed  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  For  5  years  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  liiTz.  And  thus,  you  remained  a  member  of  the  party  in  such 
a  situation  until  what  day  and  what  year? 

Mr.  Berecz.  In  '62,  October  the  5th;  my  party  membership  was 
severed  when  I  testified  the  first  day. 

Mr.  HiTz.  On  the  witness  stand? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  IIiTz.  You  say  that  you  ran  into  some  problems  when  it  was 
made  known  that  you  were  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party.  Did 
you  suffer  any  unfortunate  situations  or  run  into  any  problems  after 
it  was  divulged  that  you  had  been  in  the  Communist  Party  but  that 
you  were  working  for  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Well,  I  got  some  telephone  calls  and  some  letters  sent  to 
me  that  aren't  worth  mentioning,  but  outside  of  that  there  was  nothing 
else. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  did  the  telephone  calls  and  the  letters  call  you  and 
say  that  you  were  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  They  called  me  Judas  and  everything  else,  all  kinds  of 
names. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Berecz.  I  have  no  further 
questions. 

It  may  be  that  the  chairman  of  the  subcommittee  has  some  questions. 

Mr.  icHORD.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  one  or  two  questions.  Mr. 
Berecz,  this  meeting  in  October  of  1961  was  where  Mortimer  Scheer 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1561 

appeared,  and  did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  it  was  the  October 
meeting  that  Paul  Sporn  was  present? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  And  he  did  speak  at  that  meeting  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Now,  it  was  brought  out  in  the  testimony  that  Charles 
Regan  identified  you  as  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  before 
this  committee  in  1957.     Who  was  Charles  Regan  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Charles  Regan  was  also  an  undercover  agent  for  the 
FBI. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  That  is  all  I  have  at  this  time. 

Mr.  JoiiANSEN.  This  meeting,  was  this  a  closed  party  meeting? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  That  is  all  I  have. 

Mr.  AsHBROOK.  You  were  associated  with  one  labor  organization. 
Did  you,  under  oath,  say  you  were  associated  or  not  associated  with 
the  Progressive  Labor  Movement  in  any  way  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  That  I  was  associated  with  the  union  ? 

Mr.  AsHBRooK.  Workingmen's  organization  within  the  Communist 
Party,  and  I  wondered  if  you  were  at  any  time,  during  any  of  this 
time  you  were  undercover  agent  for  the  FBI,  associated  with  the 
Progressive  Labor  Movement  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  do  have  one  or  two  more  questions. 
Mr.  Berecz,  how  old  were  you  when  you  came  to  the  United  States? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Seventeen,  sir. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  And  did  you  go  to  work  for  American  Radiator  Com- 
pany at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  When  I  was  19  years  old,  I  went  to  work  for  them. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Are  you  a  member  of  the  union  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  What  is  your  trade,  sir  ?  What  do  you  do  at  American 
Radiator  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  am  called  a  tester  and  a  chipper.  Like  the  radiators 
that  you  have  in  the  house,  you  test  them  with  water  and  air. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  You  work  on  an  assembly  line  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  And  you  are  a  dues-paying  member  of  the  CIO  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  Yes,  sir,  Local  1199. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  want  to  make  a  statement  here  at  this  time. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  interrupt?     I  have  one  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Go  right  ahead. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Berecz,  at  the  time  that  you  were  in  the  Communist 
Party  working  as  you  have  indicated  for  the  Federal  Bureau  of  In- 
vestigation, did  you  know  Charles  Regan  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  I  know  him  from  the  Communist  Party ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  know  him  at  that  time  as  one  also  working  for 
the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  ? 

Mr.  Berecz.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Berecz,  I  want  to  say  this  to  you — Mr.  Berecz,  be- 
fore you  leave  the  witness  stand,  I  wish  to  express  to  you  not  only 


1562    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

my  own  deep  personal  thanks  and  appreciation  for  the  service  you 
have  rendered,  but  also  the  appreciation  of  all  members  of  the  Com- 
mittee on  Un-American  Activities.  I  believe  I  can  go  further  than 
that  and  say  that  I  can  express  to  you  the  gratitude,  thanks,  and 
appreciation  of  all  but  a  tiny  minority  of  the  people  of  this  country — 
and  you  know  well  who  that  tiny  minority  is  and  why  it  would  never 
thank  anyone  for  a  patriotic  service. 

You,  of  course,  have  been  and  will  be  called  all  kinds  of  names.  You 
have  been  and  will  be  attacked  and  vilified  by  certain  people.  I  hope 
that  this  does  not  bother  you  in  the  least  and  that,  on  the  contrary,  you 
accept  it  proudly  as  a  badge  of  honor. 

You  have  already — and  with  gross  unfairness — been  called  a  "paid 
informer."  Traditionally,  the  word  "informer"  has  connoted  a 
squealer  or  a  low,  despicable  person  who  betrays — to  their  oppressors — 
good,  decent,  and  brave  people  who  are  fighting  for  liberty  and  freedom 
for  themselves  and  all  others  victimized  by  their  oppressors.  Your 
role  has  been  the  very  opposite  of  that.  You  have  been  working  for 
all  the  good  and  decent  people  of  this  country.  To  save  them  and  this 
Nation  from  the  criminal  conspirators  who  would  oppress  them  and 
destroy  this,  the  greatest  of  democracies,  you  have — at  great  risk  and 
hardship  to  yourself — supplied  important  intelligence  information  to 
a  duly  constituted  security  agency  of  your  country. 

For  this,  you  deserve  only  praise.  "Y  ou  came  to  this  country  in  1929 
at  the  age  of  15.  You  have  lived  in  this  coimtry  for  35  vears  and  vou 
have  spent  20  of  them — most  of  them  and  most  of  your  adult  life — 
giving  to  your  adopted  land,  sacrificing  for  its  people  in  this  very 
special  way. 

One  fact  is  clear  in  my  mind — and,  I  am  sure,  clear  in  the  minds  of 
practically  everyone  in  this  room  and  in  this  city.  And  that  is  that  you 
are  far  superior  to,  and  have  done  far  more  for  your  country,  far  more 
for  freedom  and  decency,  than  any  of  your  detractors  have  ever  done 
or  will  do.  I  say  this  despite  the  positions  of  prestige  and  influence 
held  by  some  of  them  and  the  holier-than-thou  postures  they  adopt. 

I  know  you  have  been  hurt  by  the  service  you  have  performed.  Your 
wife  has  been  hurt ;  your  children  have  been  hurt.  From  1957  to  1962 — 
from  the  time  you  were  publicly  identified  as  a  Communist  imtil  you 
testified  before  the  Subversive  Activities  Control  Board — most  people 
in  this  connnunity — good  Americans  too — doubted  your  loj^altj^  or  con- 
sidered you  a  traitor.  Now  that  your  full  story  has  been  told  before 
the  Subversive  Activities  Control  Board  and  here,  the  appreciation  of 
3^our  fellow  countrymen  will,  I  believe,  erase  the  bitter  memories  of 
those  past  years. 

It  is  my  sincere  hope  that  for  the  remainder  of  your  life  you  will 
enjoy  the  rewards,  the  honor,  and  the  gratitude  of  the  American  people, 
which  you  deserve  for  a  job  so  well  done. 

Witness  excused. 

[Applause.] 

Mr.  Pool.  We  are  not  going  to  have  any  further  demonstrations. 
Mr.  Marshal,  if  I  have  any  further  disturbances,  you  have  your 
direction. 

Mr.  Gibson.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  renew  my  request. 

Mr.  Pool.  Yo  li  are  not  recojniizcd. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1563 

Mr.  GiBSOx.  Earlier,  you  said  I  could.  My  witness'  name  was  men- 
tioned by  this  witness. 

Mr.  Pool.  ]Mr.  Counsel,  call  the  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  We  would  now  like  to  call  Mr.  Paul  Sporn.  I  ask  him 
to  step  to  the  stand. 

TESTIMOITY  OF  PAUL  SPOEK,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 
lEA  GOLLOBIN 

Mr.  Pool.  ]Mr.  Sporn 's  request  to  use  the  tape  recorder  in  the  court- 
room is  relayed  to  me  through  counsel.  The  request  is  denied.  The 
official  reporter  is  the  court  reporter  who  takes  it  on  the  stenotype,  and 
that  is  the  practice  of  the  committee,  and  we  are  going  to  ask  you  to 
remove  the  recorder.  Remove  the  recorder  and  take  it  out  of  the 
room. 

Mr.  SroRKT.  May  I  state  the  reason  why  I  wanted  the  recorder  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Talk  later  on  it. 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  I  have  the  right  to  make  my  request  in  person,  not 
having  it  relayed  through  counsel,  and  I  ask  for  the  record  to  show 
that  a  request  is  made  then  for  this  recorder,  which  is  not  an  outside 
instrument,  to  peraiit  the  witness  to  have  a  record  of  what  is  said  and 
have  it  immediately  available  for  him.  I  submit  that  this  is  a  part  of 
having  a  fair  hearing  in  due  process  of  law  and  in  no  way  conflicts 
with  the  rules  of  this  committee  and  as  part  of  having  a  public  hearing 
rather  than  a  secret  hearing. 

A  Voice.  That  recorder  is  personal  property.  It  has  no  right  to 
be  taken  away. 

Mr.  Pool.  Marshal,  if  that  man  is  not  subpenaed,  send  him  out  of 
the  room. 

A  Voice.  I  am  subpenaed. 

Mr.  Pool.  Escort  him  into  other  quarters. 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  Am  I  to  understand  that  it  is  not  to  be  returned? 

A  Voice.  I  am  here  at  your  request,  not  mine. 

Mr.  Pool.  Take  him  to  another  room. 

A  Voice.  How  can  I  possibly  testify  if  I  cannot  hear  the  testimony 
of  the  other  witnesses  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  You  will  have  to  keep  quiet. 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  May  I  have  the  return  of  the  property?  We  will 
take  it  out  of  here,  of  course,  but  it  belongs  to  an  individual.  It  is  not 
the  property  of  the  committee. 

Mr.  Pool.  It  will  be  returned,  certainly. 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  state  the  reasons  why  I  brought  that  tape 
recorder  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Let's  have  your  witness  identified. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Your  Honor,  I  suggest  that  he  be  sworn  and,  within 
reason  and  a  brief  statement,  I  suggest  that  he  be  heard  on  this  matter. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right.    May  the  witness  stand. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Before  I  am  sworn,  I  would  also  like  to  make  a  motion 
to  this  committee  on  which  I  want  a  ruling. 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  reason  I  asked  for  this  motion  to  be  made  before  I 
am  sworn  is  that  it  is  a  motion  contesting  the  legality  of  these  hear- 


1564    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

ings,  and  if  the  motion  is  approved,  then  the  swearing  process  is  un- 
necessary. 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Spom,  you  may  make  your  brief  statement  before 
you  are  sworn. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  like  to  dispute 

Mr.  Pool.  Argue,  Mr.  Spom  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  shall  answer  that  question  at  the  proper  time,  but  I 
will  give  one  of  the  gentlemen  to  the  right  of  me  my  subpena. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  as  counsel,  I  suggest  that  no  one — even 
in  the  witness  chair  as  Mr.  Sporn  is  now  seated,  and  I  understand  it 
is  because  I  have  called  him  as  our  next  witness,  and  I  ask  that  he 
seat  himself  in  the  witness  chair — that  no  one  be  permitted  to  make 
a  statement  either  before  or  after  he  is  sworn  unless  we  know  who  is 
making  the  statement.  The  individual  who  is  in  the  chair  I  think 
should  identify  himself  by  name  before  he  is  permitted  to  speak. 

Mr.  Pool.  That  is  what  I  asked  him  to  do. 

Mr.  Sporn.  My  name  is  Mr.  Sporn,  but  I  want  to  make  this  motion 
on  the  legality  of  these  hearings. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  your  full  name;  that  is  what  we  want  to  find  out 
first. 

Mr.  Sporn.  My  name  is  Paul  Sporn. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  and  make  your  statement. 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  motion  I  am  going  to  make,  I  contest  the  legality 
of  these  hearings  for  several  reasons.  The  first  is  that  Congress  has 
no  right  to  make  legislation  limiting  freedom  of  speech  or  peaceable 
assembly,  and  as  a  consequence,  this  committee  has  no  right  to  investi- 
gate in  that  area.     That  is  my  first  reason. 

My  second  reason  is  that  there  are  members  of  this  conunittee  who 
are  illegally  in  Congress,  in  violation  of  the  14th  amendment,  members 
from  States  which  prohibit  American  citizens  from  voting.  The  fact 
of  the  matter  is  that  the  chairman  of  the  committee,  Mr.  Willis 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Excuse  me,  Mr.  Chairman.  I  suggested  that  the  only 
permission  that  he  has  to  make  a  statement  at  this  time  is  one  of  a 
brief  and  temperate  statement  of  legal  objection  and  that  it  shall  not 
and  cannot  be  argued  to  the  committee. 

Mr.  Sporn.  My  statement  will  be  temperate. 

Mr.  Pool.  Listen  to  me  just  a  minute. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  suggest  to  the  chairman  that  he  is  arguing  the  legal 
point  rather  than  stating  it.  I  do  not  feel  that  he  is  entitled  to  argue 
his  legal  point. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  like,  Mr.  Pool,  to  make  an  informed  point  and 
that  is  why  I  am  providing  some  reasons  for  it. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  your  point  and  let's  get  on. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  stating  it.  There  are  members  of  this  committee 
who  are  in  Congress  illegally  because  they  come  from  States  which 
prohibit  citizens  of  this  country  from  voting.  The  chairman  of  the 
committee 

Mr.  Pool.  We  have  heard  that  before.  If  you  have  another  point, 
go  ahead  and  make  it. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Some  members  of  the  committee  come  from  States  in 
which  only  one  third  of  the  Negroes  in  their  area  are  permitted  to 
vote.  There,  in  fact,  is  one  member  of  the  committee  who  comes  from 
a  State  in  which  less  than,  in  some  districts,  less  than  one  percent  of 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1565 

the  Negroes  living  there  are  permitted  to  vote.  These  members  are 
illegal  members  of  Congress.  The  Supreme  Court  has  recently  ruled 
on  a  series  of  cases,  a  scries  of  cases  on  representation,  and  as  I  say, 
these  members  are  illegally  in  Congress  and,  therefore,  this  committee 
is  illegally  constituted  for  that  reason  also.     That  is  my  second  reason. 

My  third  reason  is  that  tliis  committee  in  its  investigation  attempts 
to  conduct  itself  as  if  this  were  a  courtroom  and  as  if  criminal  and 
illegal  actions  have  been  undertaken.  If  this  is  so,  then  under  the 
sixth  amendment,  I  have  a  right  to  a  speedy  trial  and  to  be  able  to 
confront  the  people  who  are  making  the  accusations  through  direct 
examination,  cross-examination.  This  right  is  not  being  provided  to 
me  and,  therefore,  this  committee  is  sitting  illegally  here  today.  That 
is  my  third  reason. 

This  is  an  illegal  hearing  also,  because  this  is  not  a  public  hearing. 
At  the  beginning  of  this  hearing,  the  request  was  made  of  the  mem- 
bers of  the  committee  present  here  today  to  move  to  a  larger  room. 
This  request  was  denied.  Tickets  have  been  issued.  No  announce- 
ment was  made  that  tickets  would  be  issued  to  enter  this  room.  This 
committee  tries  to  create  the  illusion  that  there  are  people  running 
away  from  it.  If  people  are  running  away  from  it,  who  are  they  ?  I 
want  a  larger  room.  I  want  more  of  the  public  in  here.  I  hope  you 
do  too,  and  until  you  give  in  to  this  request,  this  is  a  fourth  reason 
why  this  committee  sits  illegally. 

There  is  another  reason  why  this  committee  is  sitting  illegally. 
There  were  two  gentlemen,  whom  I  shall  not  name  because  I  am  not 
going  to  name  any  names  here  today,  handed  me  my  subpena,  and  I 
asked  them  if  the  committee  had  a  specific  subject  for  this  hearing. 
They  told  me  that  the  committee  had  passed  a  proposal,  but  tliat  they 
were  not  free  to  divulge  the  nature  of  that  proposal  to  me.  That  reso- 
lution, in  fact,  was  not  read  until  this  morning.  In  other  words,  the 
committee  was  not  interested  in  having  me  come  here  thoroughly  pre- 
pared for  the  purposes  of  this  committee.  They  were  merely  willing 
to  have  me  come  here  so  that  my  name  might  be  smeared.  You  are 
not  at  all  interested  in  hearing  what  my  views  are.  You  are  not  at 
all  willing  to  hear  whether  I  am  opposed  to  discrimination,  that  I  am 
opposed  to  it. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  that  he  is  no  longer  making  a 
legal  point.  I  think  he  is  arguing  and  haranguing  with  the  committee. 
I  think  it  can  be  cut  off  and  should  be  cut  off. 

Mr.  Pool.  Do  you  have  any  other  points  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  other  reason  why  this  committee  is  sitting  illegally 
is  that  it  violates  the  10th  amendment  of  the  Constitution  which  reads, 
if  I  may  read  it  to  you— that's  the  9th  amendment.  "The  enumera- 
tion in  the  Constitution,  of  certain  rights,  shall  not  be  construed  to 
deny  or  disparage  others  retained  by  the  people."  This  committee 
denies  me  the  right,  my  human  right  to  dignity  and  to  my  own  private 
beliefs,  and,  therefore,  this  committee  also  sits  illegally  for  that  reason. 

It  is  also  in  violation  of  article  X  of  the  Bill  of  Rights. 

Mr.  Pool.  We  have  heard  your  objections  and  your  objections  are 
overruled  and  denied. 

ISIr.  Sporn.  I  anticipated  that  answer. 

Mr.  Pool.  If  you  will  stand,  I  will  swear  you  in. 


1566    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Sporx.  Before  I  am  svvorii,  I  would,  like  to  make  one  other 
request  of  the  committee. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  stand  up  and  be  sworn.  "We  have  heard  a  lot  from 
you.   We  are  ready  to  swear  you  in. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  like  to  know  if  this  table  is  bugged  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  stand  up  and  be  sworn  in. 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  I  think  the  witness  has  a  right  to  have  that  question 
answered.  This  happened,  according  to  the  record,  in  1957,  and  I 
assume  it  is  a  reasonable  request;  since  you  have  excluded  the  tape 
recorder,  he  is  entitled  to  know  whether  there  is  any  other  device, 
especially  whether  it  may  interfere  with  a  client- attorney  relation- 
ship. 

Mr.  Sporn.  In  1957,  it  is  recorded  that  this  table  was  bugged. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  can  investigate  the  table.  You  have  30  seconds  to 
do  so,  and  then  I  want  to  swear  you  in. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  don't  think  I  am  as  familiar  with  the  electronic  de- 
vices for  bugging  as  some  of  the  other  gentlemen  in  this  room.  May 
we  have  an  expert  do  the  examination  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Will  you  stand  up  and  be  sworn  ? 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  We  at  this  time  wish  to  examine  the  table  as  you 
said  we  might  do. 

Mr.  Pool.  Go  right  ahead. 

All  right.  Stand  and  be  sworn.  Hold  your  right  hand  up.  Do  you 
solenmly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  this  committee 
will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help 
you  God  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  do. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  in  view  of  the  statements  that  were  made 
by  an  individual  in  this  courtroom  a  few  moments  ago,  once  a  few 
moments  ago  in  the  courtroom  and  once  this  morning  earlier,  the  in- 
dividual being  Mr.  Will  Gibson,  who  has  been  identified  to  me  as  a 
lawyer,  member  of  tlie  bar  of  Buffalo,  and  also  as  the  attorney  for 
Mr.  Zelman  and  Mr.  Berman,  both  of  whom  have  been  subpenaed  as 
witnesses  before  this  committee,  in  which  this  morning  Mr.  Gibson 
endeavored  to  make  some  objections  and  made  a  statement  to  the  com- 
mittee at  a  time  when  neither  one  of  his  two  clients  had  yet  been  called, 
and  as  I  remember  it,  before  the  witness  who  did  testify  was  called, 
Mr.  Berecz,  and  again  just  now  when  he  said  that  he  had  an  objection 
to  make  and  that  he  did  not  consider  that  his  clients'  rights  were  being 
protected.  Also,  in  view  of  some  part  of  Mr.  Sporn's  objection  that 
was  made  a  few  moments  ago  to  the  effect  that  his  riglits  were  being 
violated  and  that  he  has  not  had  an  opportimity  to  answer  and  prob- 
ably won't  have  an  opportunity  to  answer  certain  accusations  that 
have  been  made  against  him,  I  think  that  I  should  state  on  behalf  of 
the  committee,  here  in  public,  that  all  of  the  witnesses  who  have  been 
subpenaed  to  appear  here  today  and  a  number  of  other  persons  as 
w^el],  who  have  not  been  subpenaed,  have  all  been  sent  by  tlie  commit- 
tee letters  under  date  of  April  10,  1964,  which  gave  them  the  oppor- 
tunity under  House  Rule  XI,  26  (m),  to  appear  here  and  to  make  any 
voluntary  statement  that  they  care  to  make,  provided  that  they  give 
notice  to  the  committee  in  advance ;  that,  generally  speaking,  is  what 
this  letter  said  to  those  individuals,  including  Paul  Sporn. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1567 

I  would  like  to  read  at  this  time  the  letter  that  I  have  reference 
to  which  was  sent  to  such  individuals.    I  am  quoting : 

"Pursuant  to  House  Rule  XI,  26  (m),  the  Committee  on  Un-Amer- 
ican Activities  has  received  certain  testimony  in  executive  session. 

"In  the  course  of  this  testimony,  a  person  by  the  name  of" — and 
the  name  of  the  witness  was  stated  in  the  letter  to  each  individual — 
"a  resident  of" — and  the  residence  of  the  individual  giving  such 
testimony  was  given — "was  identified  as  having  been  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party."  I  am  sorry,  Mr.  Chairman.  I  have  made  an 
error  in  the  reading  of  this  in  supplying  the  blanks.  I  will  go  back 
to  read  what  I  have  just  read : 

"In  the  course  of  this  testimony,  a  person  by  the  name  of ," 

I  am  interrupting  the  reading  of  this  letter  to  supply  the  blanks.  In 
that  blank  was  given  tlie  name  of  an  individual  who  would  be  referred 
to  later  in  this  letter. 

Resuming  the  reading  of  the  letter :  "a  resident  of ,"  and 

there  in  that  blank  was  given  the  residence  of  the  person  who  would 
be  referred  to  later  in  the  letter  which  I  am  reading.  Resuming  the 
reading — 

was  identified  as  having  been  a  member  of  tlie  Communist  Party. 

A  subcommittee  of  tlie  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  will  meet  at 
9:00  a.m.  on  April  29,  1964.  in  the  City  of  Bufealo,  New  York,  in  Room  702, 
Federal  Court  House,  69  Niagara  Street. 

At  that  time,  if  you  so  desire,  you  will  be  afforded  an  opportunity  voluntarily 
to  appear  as  a  witness.  At  the  same  time,  the  subcommittee  will  receive  and 
dispose  of  any  request  made  by  you  to  subpoena  additional  witnesses. 

This  is  not  a  subpoena  or  summons  requiring  you  to  appear.  However,  if 
you  desire  to  avail  yourself  of  this  opportunity,  you  should  so  advise  the  Direc- 
tor of  the  Committee  not  later  than  Friday,  April  24,  1964.  He  may  be  reached 
at  Room  226,  Cannon  House  Office  Building,  Washington  2.5,  D.C. ;  telephone 
number :  Capitol  4-3121,  extension  3051. 

Very  truly  yours, 

Edwin  E.  Willis,  Chairma?i. 

There  was  a  notation  at  the  bottom  that  enclosed  was  a  copy  of  the 
House  Rule  26(g)  and  26  (m).  That  concludes  the  reading  of  the 
form  of  letter,  Mr.  Chairman,  which  I  understand,  filled  in,  was  di- 
rected to  an  individual  named  Paul  Sporn. 

Mr.  Sporx.  I  have  nothing  to  say  to  the  committee  in  private. 
What  I  have  to  say  will  be  said  in  public.  If  you  give  me  a  chance 
to  say  it  in  public. 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Sporn,  from  now  on  wait  until  somebody  asks  you 
a  question  before  you  spontaneously  make  a  statement  like  that. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairm.an,  having  the  benefit  of  that  remark,  how- 
ever, I  note  that  my  reading  of  the  form  letter  in  no  way  states 
whether  the  opportmiity  to  voluntarily  appear  as  a  witness  would 
be  public  or  private. 

Mr.  GoLLOBTN.  Mr.  Chairman,  since  Mr.  Hitz  has  concluded  the 
letter,  may  I  make  a  motion  in  connection  to  that  ? 

IMr.  Pool.  Talk  to  counsel  first. 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  I  wish  to  make  it  directly  to  the  committee,  if  I  may, 
Mr.  Pool.   It  is  a  public  statement. 

Mr.  Pool.  Come  up  here. 

(Wliereupon,  Counsel  Gollobin  and  Counsel  Hitz  a])proached  the 
bench  for  an  off-the-record  discussion.) 

Mr.  Hitz.  On  the  record. 


1568    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Chairman,  under  the  rules  and  procedures  followed  by  this 
committee  and  along  with  other  Houses — of  both  Houses  of  Congress, 
counsel  are  not  permitted  to  make  objections  directly  to  the  com- 
mittee. The  witnesses  are  permitted  to  do  so,  and  they  may  do  so 
with  and  after  consultation  by  counsel  of  their  own  choice.  I  sug- 
gest that  the  chairman  state  to  Mr.  Sporn,  the  witness,  that  if  he 
cares  to  make  any  relevant  and  brief  statement  that  is  an  objection 
to  anything  that  is  occurring  in  this  courtroom  at  this  time,  that 
he  do  so. 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  Mr.  Chairman,  at  the  outset  of  this  hearing  a  mo- 
tion was  made,  and  I  asked  for  the  same  privilege. 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Sporn,  I  so  state  to  you  the  very  words  counsel  has 
just  used,  and  if  you  have  objection,  you  make  your  objection.  You 
have  the  right  to  consultation  with  your  own  counsel. 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  May  I  have  an  objection  for  the  record  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  You  can  confer  with  your  client.  You  are  not  to  talk 
to  the  committee. 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  I  wish  to  have  my  objection  that  the  committee  has 
permitted  motions  by  counsel  at  the  outset  of  this  hearing,  at  the  very 
beginning,  and  I  consider  it  a  denial  of  a  fair  hearing  and  a  mockery. 

Mr.  Pool.  If  you  keep  on,  you  are  going  to  hold  yourself  in  con- 
tempt of  Congress.     Now,  you  sit  down  and  be  quiet. 

Proceed  with  your  questions. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  have  an  objection  to  make.  This  is  a  further  vio- 
lation of  due  process  of  law.  A  statement  has  been  made  about  my 
name  appearing  as  having  been  something  or  other,  and  I  am  not 
being  given  the  right  to  directly  confront  the  person  who  made  such 
allegations.  That  is  my  objection,  violation  of  the  due  process  of 
law,  another  violation  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  objection  is  overruled.  Answer  the  questions  put 
to  you. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  will  you  please  state  your  address  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  remind  the  chairman  of  this  committee  that 
he  said  after  I  had  been  sworn  in,  he  would  allow  me  to  state  the 
reasons  why  I  wanted  to  bring  the  tape  recorder  in  here. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  your  reasons. 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  reason  I  wanted  this  testimony  recorded  in  full 
is  that  the  editors  of  some  newspapers  have  a  habit  of  distorting  the 
honest  labors  of  their  reporters.  I  would  like  now  to  cite  an  example, 
and  I  will  give  this  as  an  exhibit  to  the  reporter.  There  are  two 
stories  in  the  newspapers  in  this  city 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Excuse  me,  Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  like  to  interrupt  you, 
and  I  am  sorry  I  have  to  suggest  to  the  chairman  that  this  in  no  way 
is  a  relevant  objection  to  the  proceeding  here  as  to  what  appears  or 
does  not  appear  in  the  public  press. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  think  it  is  relevant  to  my  purpose  in  bringing  the 
tape  recorder  in  and  wanting  to  have  a  full  tape  of  the  hearing. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  have  stated  your  objection.     It  is  overruled.     Go  on. 

Mr.  Sporn.  All  right.  There  were  two  stories  covering  the  same 
thing. 

Mr.  Pool.  Ask  the  next  question,  Counsel,  and  proceed  with  the 
questions. 


COMAIUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1569 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Mr.  Sporn,  have  you  stated  your  objection  with  reference 
to  this  tape  recorder  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  state  it  now,  that  the  testimony  given 
here  in  this  hearing  is  frequently  distorted  in  the  press.  Now,  you 
must  admit  that 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  must  interrupt  again.  I  asked  you  merely  if  you  had 
stated  your  objection.  It  is  my  view  that  you  are  arguing  and  I  in- 
vite the  chairman  again  to  rule,  and  I  will  proceed. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  merely  trying  to  help  the  committee.  I  am  help- 
ing the  committee,  and  I  think  they  could  do  me  justice  by  allowing  me 
to  have  a  tape  recorder. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  have  your  ruling,  and  your  objection  is  overruled. 
Counsel,  proceed  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  please  give  your  address. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  shall  not  state  my  home  address.  I  shall  give  you 
my  address  at  my  place  of  work.  The  reason  I  will  not  state  my 
home  address  is  that  I  do  not  wish  to  be  harassed  by  the  mentality 
which  supports  this  committee.  I  have  here,  for  example,  something 
or  some  things  sent 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  that  if  it  is  satisfactory  with  the  chairman 
that  the  witness  state  the  address  that  he  indicates  he  is  going  to  with- 
out being  argumentative,  and  that  you  proceed  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  not  trying  to  be  argumentative.  I  am  trying  to 
answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Answer  the  question  and  be  responsive. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  like  to  read  to  you  the  kind  of  harassment  that 
occurs  from  stating  an  address  and  the  kind  of  people  that  support  this 
committee. 

Mr.  Pool.  Give  your  home  address  and  that's  what  we  want. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  not  going  to  give  you  my  home  address. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  give  your  home  address. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  not  going  to  give  my  home  address.  I  am  going 
to  give  my  address  at  my  place  of  work,  which  is  something  that  the 
committee  has  recognized  many  times  before. 

Mr.  Pool.  Give  your  business  address. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  also  like  to  submit  this  as  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  am  asking  you  the  question.  What  is  your  business 
address  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  My  business  address  is  State  University  of  New  York  at 
Buffalo,  Main  Street. 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  proceed. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  is  your  home  address  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  not  going  to  give  you  my  home  address  because  it 
would  here  open  me  to  harassment.  I  would  like  to  indicate  to  you  the 
reasonableness  of  my  position.   May  I  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  that  he  has  made  an  objection 
here.  I  ask  the  Chair  to  rule  upon  the  validity  of  the  objection,  and 
I  reconunend  to  the  Chair  that  he  overrule  the  objection  and  require 
the  answer  of  his  home  address,  nevertheless. 

Mr.  Sporn.  My  home  address  has  nothing  to  do  with  the  pertinency 
of  the  legislative  purpose,  and  I  would  like  to  avoid  harassment,  and  I 
would  like  to  indicate  to  you  the  kind  of  harassment  I  would  open  my- 
self to.    I  am  sure  you  would  like  to  know  that. 


1570    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chcairman,  I  am  sure  lie  made  his  objection,  namely, 
that  it  is  not  relevant  to  this  inquiry  that  he  give  his  home  address. 
I  would  like  to  state  for  the  record  the  relevancy  of  the  record  of  his 
home  address  in  order  to  identify  the  individual  who  is  now  in  the 
witness  chair  and  says  his  name  is  Paul  Sporn.  I  think  that  his  home 
address  is  relevant  to  this  inquiry  and  is  a  pertinent  question.  I  ask 
the  chairman  to  require  him  to  answer  the  question  despite  his  objec- 
tion, and  that  he  be  advised  that  a  failure  and  refusal  to  answer  it  may 
subject  him  to  the  penalties  of  contempt. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  overruled  your  objection  and  order  you  and  direct  you 
to  answer  the  question  that  counsel  has  asked  you,  and  I  direct  you  to 
answer  the  question. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Sporn".  I  shall  state  my  address,  but  I  shall  hold  the  committee 
accountable  for  any  harassment  that  occurs. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  your  address. 

Mr.  Sporn.  442  Huntington  Avenue,  Buffalo,  New  York. 

Mr.  Pool.  That  is  your  home  address  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  That  is  my  home  address. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  when  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  was  born  in  the  city  of  New  York.  I  don't  see,  again, 
what  this  has  to  do  with  the  hearing  here. 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  be  responsive  to  the  questions. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  like  to  understand  why ;  you  have  identified  me 
already.  You  have  identified  me  as  to  i)lace  of  domicile,  and  what 
more  information  do  you  want  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  This  is  for  the  purpose  of  complete  identification.  Pro- 
ceed with  the  next  question.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  understand  that. 

Mr,  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  pertinency  and  relevancy  of  this 
question  is  perfectly  clear  on  the  face  of  it.  It  is  further  identifica- 
tion of  the  individual  with  respect  to  his  place  of  birth,  his  age  as  he 
now  sits  here,  and  of  other  activities  concerning  which  we  are  going  to 
ask  him.  The  pertinency  is  beyond  question.  I  ask  the  chairman  to 
overrule  his  objection  and  to  demand  the  answer,  nevertheless. 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  ask  the  committee  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute.     Counsel,  state  the  question  again. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wlien  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  ask  the  committee  what  possible  relevancy  this 
has? 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  ask  the  Chair  to  direct  counsel  to  ask  the  next 
question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  answer  the  question.  I  would  like  a 
point  clarified.     Do  you  insist  that  you  will  not  clarify  a  point  for  me  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel  has  clarified  it. 

Mr.  Sporn.  He  merely  said  that  it  has  been  established,  but  I  do  not 
know  in  what  way. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  as  counsel  for  the  committee,  I  have  indicated 
the  relevancy  and  the  pertinency  of  this  question,  which  I  am  sure  will 
stand  up  in  the  court.    I  ask  the  chairman  again  to  overi'iile  youi"  objec- 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1571 

tion  and  to  require  your  answer  to  the  question,  when  and  where  were 
you  born,  under  the  pain  and  penalty  of  possible  contempt. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Since  this  may  be 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute.  I  overrule  your  objection  to  that  question, 
and  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  SroRx.  Before  I  answer  the  question,  I  usually  like  to  have 
some  clarity  on  it.  I  am  an  extremely  busy  person  and  I  recognize  that 
you  are  also. 

Mr.  Pool.  Let  the  record  show  that  he  has  refused  to  answer  the 
question.    Proceed  with  the  next  question,  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Next  question,  Mr.  Sporn. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  have  not  refused  to  answer  the  question.  I  am  asking 
for  clarity  on  it. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right.  I  will  give  you  one  last  chance  to  answer  the 
question. 

]\Ir.  Sporn".  Before  you  give  me  a  last  chance,  may  I  have  clarity 
on  it? 

Mr.  Pool.  I  am  not  going  to  waste  any  more  time  on  whether  this  is 
relevant. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  don't  want  to  waste  time,  and  you  men  ought  not  to  be 
wasting  time  because  there  are  many  important  things  that  you  have 
to  do  in  Washington,  D.C. 

Mr.  Pool.  Answer  the  question,  for  the  last  time. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  still  have  no  clarity.    May  I  have  clarity,  please? 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed.  Just  answer  the  question.  Proceed  with  the 
next  question,  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  The  next  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  not  refuse  to  answer  the  question.  May  I  consult 
with  counsel  ?    Can  I  consult  v/ith  counsel  for  one  moment,  please? 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right. 

(Witness  conferred  wdth  counsel.) 

Mr.  Sporn.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  furnish  the  committee  with  a  resume  of  your 
educational  background  ?    I  ask  you  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  can't  possibly  see  what  relevancy  that  has  to  do  with 
the  subject  of  this  hearing.  I  am  educated  enough  to  know  this,  that 
America  has  many,  many  problems,  one  of  which  is  discrimination,  and 
another  of  which  is  chronic  unemployment.  Buffalo,  for  example,  at 
the  present  moment  has  some  40,000  people  unemployed.  These  are 
the  problems,  it  seems  to  me,  which  we  should  be  interested  in. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  before  proceeding  with  the  next  question, 
I  would  like  to,  with  your  permission,  answer  the  objection  of  lack  of 
relevancy  of  this  question  and  then  to  ask  the  chairman  to  demand  an 
answer. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  I  am  now  going  to  give  a  statement  to  you 
with  reference  to  the  relevancy  and  pertinency  of  the  question  having 
to  do  with  your  educational  background.  The  identification  that 
will  be  further  obtained  concerning  you  and  your  present  and  past 
activities  from  the  educational  background,  that  is  the  basis  for  this 
question  as  one  of  the  relevant  points,  and  it  is  important  and,  there- 
fore, pertinent  to  the  inquiry  that  we  are  making  of  you  here  today. 


1572    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

In  addition  to  that — and  more  specifically — it  is  a  well-known  situa- 
tion in  the  operation  of  the  Communist  Party  that  there  have  been 
people  who  have  been  downgrading  their  capabilities  and  their  possi- 
bilities, who  have  been  hiding  their  educational  background  and  at- 
tainments and  have  been  put  to  work  for  the  purposes  of  the 
Communist  Party  in  fields  other  than  in  which  a  person  has  been 
particularly  trained.  That  is  a  special  pertinency  over  and  above 
the  further  identification  of  you  as  an  individual,  and  further  light 
to  be  thrown  upon  the  activities  that  we  have  received  information 
about  concerning  which  we  will  ask  you  in  the  form  of  questions. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Your  very  last  reason  is  the  one  that  makes  me  most 
reluctant  to  state  my  educational  background.  You  make  it  appear 
as  if  it  is  a  shame  to  be  a  workingman. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  have  stated  what  I  think  is  a  sufficient  statement  of 
relevancy  and  pertinency.  I  will  ask  the  chairman  to  require  the 
witness  to  answer  the  question  despite  his  reason  given. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  don't  understand.  Getting  an  education  doesn't  seem 
to  me  engaging  in  illegal  activities. 

Mr.  Pool.  Phrase  your  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  that  the  witness  be  advised 
it  is  apparent  he  has  not  answered  the  question ;  that  he  has  had  an 
opportunity  to  answer  the  pending  question;  that  not  having  done 
so,  it  is  apparent  that  his  failure  is  a  refusal;  and  that  the  refusal 
is  one  that  he  must  view  in  the  light  of  possible  penalties  of  contempt. 
I  ask  the  chairman  to  so  advise  him. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  so  advise  you. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  absolutely  willing  to  answer. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  so  advise  you  and  point  out  to  you  that  you  could  pos- 
sibly be  subject  to  contempt  if  you  don't  answer  the  questions.  Now, 
if  you  do  not  care  to  answer  the  question,  so  state,  and  we  will  go 
on  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  a  graduate  of  college. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  graduate  from  high  school,  Mr.  Sporn  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  think  the  answer  is  self-evident. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  he  has  not  voiced  a  legal  objection  to  the 
question.  I  ask  that  the  question  be  answered.  I  request  the  chair- 
man to  demand  the  answer  under  the  pain  and  penalty  of  contempt. 

Mr.  Sporn".  Really,  with  some  serious  problems,  when  an  answer  is 
self-evident,  do  we  have  to  go  through  this  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Marshal,  if  he  keeps  on  making  statements  without 
trying  to  be  responsive  to  the  question,  we  will  have  to  take  action. 

Proceed  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Mr.  Sporn,  I  am  advising  the  chairman  to  state  to  you 
that  your  failure  to  answer  the  question,  whether  or  not  you  have 
graduated  from  high  school,  is  a  refusal  which  is  punishable  by  con- 
tempt, and  that  he  demand  the  answer. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  so  state  to  you,  and  I  demand  the  answer  and  direct  you 
to  answer. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  sorry.    I  did  not  hear  you. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Mr.  Sporn,  I  am  asking  the  chairman  to  advise  you  that 
your  failure  to  answer  the  question  as  to  whether  or  not  you  are  a 
graduate  of  high  school  is  a  failure  which  is  a  refusal  punishable  by 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1573 

contempt  proceedings,  and  that  he  demand  the  answer  of  you  never- 
theless. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  In  the  State  of  New  York,  one  is  required  to  have  a 
high  school  diploma  in  order  to  enter  some  of  the  colleges  in  this  State. 
I  have  a  high  school  diploma.     I  have  graduated  from  high  school. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  did  yon  graduate  from  high  school,  Mr.  Sporn? 

Mr.  Sporn".  Now,  what  relevancy  does  that  have,  may  I  ask  ?  This 
happened  quite  a  long  time  ago. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  It  is  like  the  ancient  history  recited  before. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you,  for  the  last  time,  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  In  1939,  at  the  start  of  the  Second  World  War. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wlien  did  you  graduate  from  college,  Mr.  Sporn  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  My  education  was  interrupted  because  I  had  to  serve  in 
the  United  States  Air  Force  in  an  anti-Fascist  war,  where  I  learned 

Mr.  Pool.  Answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  No,  you  are  not.  I  suggest  the  witness  answer  the 
question  or  we  proceed  to  the  next  one. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  give  you  an  answer  which  will  fill  in  on 
my  background  and  identify  what  I  believe  in. 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  statement  is  not  responsive  to  the  question.  All 
you  have  to  do  is  answer  the  question,  and  I  direct  you  to  answer  the 
question  for  the  last  time. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Would  you  restate  the  question  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  When  were  you  graduated  from  college  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  returned  to  school  after  the  end  of  the  war  against 
fascism  and  nazism  in  1949. 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  answer  is  not  responsive. 

Mr.  Sporn.   I  am  about  to  give  a  date. 

Mr.  Pool.  Answer  the  question.     I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  in  1951. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  degree  did  you  receive  upon  graduation  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Again,  may  I  protest  ?  It's  just  that  I  lack  clarity  on 
this.  I  don't  see  what  relevancy  this  has  to  many  of  the  problems 
in  America  and  un-American  problems  that  we  might  be  solving, 
if  we  were  somewhere  else. 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  explain  the  relevancy  of  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  suggest  that  this  matter 
of  the  degree  upon  graduation  from  college  is  further  identification. 
It  has  to  do  with  the  specific  pertinency  that  I  have  mentioned  before, 
having  to  do  with  activities  of  the  sort  that  I  have  outlined.  It  is 
unquestionably  pertinent,  and  I  ask  the  chairman  to  require  the  an- 
swer of  the  degree  received  upon  graduation. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  so  direct  you. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  the  Paul  Sporn  with  the  bachelor  of  arts  degree. 

Mr.  HiTz.  From  what  college  or  university  did  you  receive  that 
degree  in  that  year  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  New  York  University. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  graduate  with  honors  cum  laude,  Mr.  Sporn? 

Mr.  Sporn.  You  are  now  asking  me  to  violate  a  fundamental  prin- 
ciple of  my  life,  which  is  never  to  boast  about  myself. 


1574    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Pool.  Be  responsive  to  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  that  the  Chair  advise  the  wit- 
ness that  if  he  does  not  answer  this  question,  which  I  believe  to  be 
pertinent,  that  he  does  so  at  the  peril  of  risk  of  contempt. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  so  advise  the  witness. 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  ask  counsel  what  the  relevancy  is  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Don't  interrupt. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I'm  sorry. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  so  advise  you,  as  counsel  has  stated,  and  I  direct  you 
now  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  first  have  clarification  on  the  relevancy  of  that 
question  to  these  hearings  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  The  question  as  to  whether  or  not  you  graduated  with 
honors  is  one  that  is  relevant  and  pertinent  to  this  inquiry  for  the 
same  reasons  that  I  have  stated  with  regard  to  the  fact  of  graduation 
and  the  degree  with  which  you  have  graduated.  It  needs  no  further 
elucidation.    I  ask  the  Chair  to  demand  the  answer. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  so  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  that  Paul  Sporn  who  has  a  bachelor  of  arts 
degree  and  graduated  from  NYU  in  1951  with  honors. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  where  have  you  been  employed  since  your 
graduation  from  college  in  1951,  giving  the  places  of  employment 
from  that  time  to  the  present  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  have  worked  all  of  my  life.  I  worked  every  day  ex- 
cept, of  course,  today.  I  am  not  doing  the  job  I  should  be  doing — 
teaching — because  I  have  been  commanded  to  come  down  here.  The 
work  that  I  have  done  has  taught  me  a  great  deal  about  the  economic 
inadequacies  and  injustices  which  exist  in  American  industry. 

[Applause  and  disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  answer  is  not  responsive.  I  direct  you  to  answer 
the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  In  what  way  do  the  places  where  I  have  worked  con- 
nect with  the  investigation  into  un-American  activities  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  I  am  directing  you  to  answer  the  question,  for  the  last 
time. 

Mr.  HiTZ,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  make  some  comment  as 
to  his  objection,  because  it  has  to  do  with  the  relevancy  of  the  question. 
(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  note  that  the  counsel  and  witness  have 
ceased  their  conference.  I  ask  that  the  question  that  is  pending 
be  demanded  of  answer  by  the  chairman  and  that  it  be  stated  to  him 
that  he  may  refuse  only  under  the  penalties  of  contempt. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  so  state  to  the  witness  and  direct  him  to  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  going  to  answer  the  question  in  the  only  way  I 
know  how  at  the  moment,  if  you  will  allow  me.  Now,  what  I  would 
like  to  laiow  is,  you  had  extensive  investigation  facilities,  I  under- 
stand. 

Mr.  Pool.  This  is  not  responsive.  For  the  last  time,  I  ask  you  and 
direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  thing  I  am  trying  to  get  at,  it  seems  that  you  have 
gone  to  a  sreat  deal  of  exDense  and  could  have  scotten  this  information. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1575 

Mr.  Pool.  Hold  it  up.  Let  the  record  show  he  did  not  respond  to 
the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Well  answer  the  question  right  now. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Well,  are  you  so  insisting  that  I  answer  it  your  way? 
Will  you  please  allow  me  to  answer  it  in  the  way  I  can  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  for  the  last  time  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  answer  the  question  the  way  I  can  ?  You  cannot 
tell  me  how  to  answer  the  question.  You  may  command  me  to  come 
down  here,  but  I  am  trying  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  proceed  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  were  you  employed  by  the  Eighth  Street  Book 
Shop  or  an  organization  of  a  similar  name  in  the  period  of  approxi- 
mately 1949  to  1952  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Are  you  going  to  inquire  now  into  the  kind  of  books 
that  were  sold  in  that  bookshop  as  un-American  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  That  is  not  responsive  to  the  question,  so  answer  the  ques- 
tion.    I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  like  to  know  what  the  counsel  has  in  mind. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  inquiry  has  to  do  with  a  possible  place 
of  employment  after  graduation.  It  has  further  to  do  w^ith  the  matters 
that  I  have  stated  before  which  are  clearly  pertinent  to  the  inquiry 
here,  having  to  do  with  the  individual  identity,  with  the  indicated 
background  of  the  individual,  with  the  individual's  activities  in  and 
about  the  Communist  Party.  The  pertinency  is  apparent.  I  ask  the 
chairman  to  again  overrule  the  reason  for  the  refusal  to  answer  and 
demand  that  the  question  be  answered. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  so  overrule  the  reason  for  not  answering  and  direct  you 
to  answer. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Did  counsel  say  after  graduation  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  My  question  was,  after  graduation,  which  is  '51  accord- 
ing to  your  testimony. 

Mr.  Sporn.  To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  yes,  I  did  for  a  short  time 
after  graduation  work  in  the  Eight  Street  Book  Shop  selling  books. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  committee  will  stand  in  recess  for  10  minutes. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Mr.  Pool.  Come  to  order. 

Counsel,  proceed  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  on  or  about  October  9, 1953,  did  you  make  an 
application  for  employment  with  the  American  Optical  Company? 

Mr.  Sporn.   (No  response.) 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel) . 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  ask  that  you  require  him  to  answer  the 
question  by  demand. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  am  thinking.  I  think  I  have  a  right 
to  think  about  these  things,  don't  I?  Now,  why  am  I  being  forced  to 
immediately  answer  the  question  like  that?  Can  I  assemble  my 
thoughts,  please  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  You  are  directed  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Well,  I  am  thinking  about  it  at  the  moment.  As  I 
recall,  on  or  about — what  was  the  date  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  October  9, 1953. 

36-414—64 5 


1576    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Sporn.  It  was  a  rather  difficult  time  to  get  employment,  as  I 
recall.  It  seems  to  me  it  would  be  better  if  we  were  trying  to  solve 
that  problem  because  it  is  still  difficult  times  to  get  employment,  even 
now. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  he  is  not  answering  the  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  will  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Would  you  repeat  the  question,  please  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  On  or  about  October  9,  1953,  did  you  make  application 
for  employment  with  the  American  Optical  Comi)any  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Excuse  me,  I  am  trying  to  refresh  my  memory  on  the 
date.     I  am  not  sure  about  the  date. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  I  said,  "on  or  about"  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  On  or  about — yes,  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  in  that  application  for  employment  with  that 
company,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  in  those  spaces  requesting  information 
having  to  do  with  your  schooling  and  education,  that  you  listed  grade 
school  as  "public  schools,"  the  high  school  as  "Townsend  Harris  High" 
School,  New  York,  years  completed,  "1939,"  with  reference  to  the  high 
school,  and  that  you  left  blank,  vocational  or  trade  school,  business  or 
technical  school,  college  or  university,  and  others ;  that  you  left  those 
blank? 

Mr.  Sporn.  You  had  this  information  all  along;  why  did  you  ask 
me  those  questions  before  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  ask  that  the  chairman  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  are  directed  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  thought  I  answered  the  question  before,  that  I  grad- 
uated from  high  school  in  1939. 

Mr.  Pool.  That  was  not  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  That  is  not  responsive  to  the  question.  Mr.  Sporn,  the 
question  was,  Did  you  not  leave  blank  those  spaces  having  to  do  with 
all  educational  attainments  after  high  school  on  this  application  to  the 
American  Optical  Company  ? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel) . 

Mr.  Sporn.  Will  you  restate  the  question,  please  ? 

Mr.  HiTz  (to  reporter) .  Will  you  read  the  question. 

(The  reporter  read  the  pending  question.) 

Mr.  Sporn.  To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  I  was  free  to  leave  those 
spaces ;  I  had  the  choice.     I  was  free  to  leave  those  spaces  blank. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  this  answer  is  not 
responsive. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Why  isn't  the  answer  responsive,  Mr.  Johansen? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  will  interject  an  explanation  and  repeat 
the  question.  The  question  was,  Mr.  Sporn,  whether  or  not  you  did,  in 
fact,  leave  blank  those  spaces  calling  for  attainments  in  education 
beyond  high  school,  not  the  reason  for  it.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  that  is 
what  you  did  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  see  the  application  so  that  I  can  have  the  same 
information  that  you  already  have  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  will  show  you  a  copy  of  "Sporn  Exhibit  No.  1." 

(Document  handed  to  witness.) 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1577 

Mr.  Sporn.  Now  that  I  see  the  copy  you  have  looked  at ;  yes,  I  did 
leave  those  spaces  blank.  You  had  that  information  all  along,  of 
course,  which  indicates  that  the  purpose  is  not  really  to  get  information. 

Mr.  Pool.  Answer  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  did  you  not  reply  under  question  18,  which 
is,  "What  position  do  you  prefer?",  "Machine  Operator"?  I  will 
show  you  again  Exhibit  No.  1,  Mr.  Sporn. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Well,  that  way  we  will  both  have  the  same  information, 
at  any  rate.     Now,  would  you  repeat  that  question  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  not,  under  the  question  calling  for  such  an 
answer,  say  that  your  preference  was  for  machine  operator  ? 

Mr.  Sporn".  Is  there  any  shame  in  being  a  machine  operator? 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  answer  is  not  responsive.  The  objection  is  not  rele- 
vant. It  needs  no  reply.  I  request  the  chainnan  to  demand  an 
answer. 

Mr.  Sporn".  Before,  you  did  make  it  somid  as  if  it  was  a  shameful 
thing  to  work  as  a  machine  operator  or  any  other  job  in  the  plant. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Of  course,  I  don't  have  the  application  in  front  of  me, 
but  I  do  think  it  said  exactly  what  Mr.  Hitz  read  himself  on  the  piece 
of  paper. 

(Document  marked  "Sporn  Exhibit  No.  1"  and  retained  in  com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr.  Hitz.  Mr.  Sporn,  were  you  employed  as  a  result  of  your  appli- 
cation by  American  Optical  Company  for  the  period  of  approxi- 
mately October  19,  1953,  to  approximately  April  9,  1954  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  wonder  if  the  committee  is  aware  that  in  1954  there 
was  a  great  deal  of  unemployment  in  Buffalo,  and  I  was  laid  off  from 
that  plant  in  1954? 

Mr.  Hitz.  That  is  not  responsive. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  give  you  the  terminal  date  of  that  em- 
ployment. Yes,  I  was  employed,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge.  I 
don't  have  the  application  in  front  of  me,  but  I  w^as  employed  during 
those  dates. 

Mr.  Pool,  Proceed  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Hitz.  What  employment,  Mr.  Sporn,  did  you  have  with  the 
Optical  Company  during  approximately  that  period  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Didn't  you  just  ask  me  that  question  ? 
•    Mr.  Hitz.  I  ask  you  now,  AVhat  was  your  employment?     My 
previous  question  was.  What  was  your  application  for  employment  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  ask  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Answer  the  question.  You  are  not  asking  the  questions 
here  today. 

Mr.  Sporn.  That  is  one  of  the  difficulties.  You  know,  in  a  class- 
room where  I  teach,  we  have  a  trade  of  questions  and  answers  and  we 
get  lots  more  infonnation  than  we  seem  to  be  getting  today,  and  no- 
body ever  asks  questions  about  information  they  already  have.  The 
reason,  it  seems  to  me,  why  the  committee  is  seeking  this  information, 
is  for  some  other  purpose.  You  are  not  here  for  information.  You 
are  here  for  another  purpose.   That  is  what  you  are  here  for. 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  ask  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Hitz.  I  ask  that  the  chairman  demand  the  answer. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 


1578    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Sporn.  Weren't  your  investigators  able  to  get  that  infor- 
mation ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question.  Let  the  record  show  he  refuses  to  answer 
the  question.     Next  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  haven't  yet  refused  to  answer  the  question. 
Mr.  Pool.  Well,  answer  the  question  right  now. 
(Witness  conferred  with  counsel) . 
Mr.  Sporn.  I  was  employed  as  a  machine  operator. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question,  Counsel. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  reluctant  to  answer  the  question  because  they  make 
the  investigators  look  rather  foolish. 

Mr.  Pool.  Wait  until  he  asks  you  a  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  on  a  date  not  stated  in  your  application, 
did  you  not  apply  for  employment  with  the  Twin  Coach  Company  of 
Buffalo,  N.Y. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  know  what's  going  to  happen;  you  are  going  to  go 
through  all  these  applications.  I  was  laid  off  many,  many  times 
during  that  period  because  American  industry  could  not  provide  me 
with  a  regular  job.  "On  a  date  not  stated,"  you  say — what  is  the 
question  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  There  is  no  question  pending  at  this  time.  You  did 
not  permit  me  to  finish  it. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  sorry.     Go  ahead. 

Mr.  HiTz.  In  which  application  you  stated  no  educational  attain- 
ment beyond  that  of  "Harris  High  School,"  which,  without  further 
identification,  resulted  in  your  employment  by  Twin  Coach  Company  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  a  bit  confused.  Is  it  un-American  not  to  state 
education  or  is  it  un-American  to  go  to  work  in  a  plant?  Now,  you 
are  asking  me  to  state  what  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  find  out  what  the  question  and  the  per- 
tinency of  it  is ;  that  is  why  I  asked  the  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Is  it  un-American  not  to  list  one's  education  ? 

Mr,  Pool.  State  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  like  to  know  the  pertinency  of  it. 

Mr.  Hnz.  I  think  the  chairman  is  addressing  me.  I  did  not  un- 
derstand whether  the  Chair  asked  me  to  state  the  next  question  or 
the  previous  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  If  he  hasn't  answered  the  previous  question,  that  will 
be  the  one  to  ask.  Do  you  insist  upon  the  answer  to  the  previous 
question  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn  has  indicated  he  doesn't  understand  the  ques- 
tion.    I  will  repeat  the  question  to  him. 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  ask  another  question  of  Mr.  Hitz,  counsel  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  No.    Just  answer  the  questions  that  Mr.  Hitz  puts  to  you. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Well,  I  would  like  to,  but  the  reason  I  kept  raising  the 
point 

Mr.  Pool.  You  are  going  to  have  to  listen  to  the  questions  and  an- 
swer them,  and  that  is  all  we  have  you  here  for. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1579 

Mr.  Sporn.  Aren't  you  here  to  have  me  give  you  some  information  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  We  are  here  to  ask  you  questions  that  you  are  to  respond 
to. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  explain  why  I  am  having  difficulty  with 
the  pertinency.     I  would  like  to  ask  a  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  We  are  not  here  to  have  you  lecture  to  us. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  not  trying  to  lecture  to  you.     I  am  trying 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Counsel  stated  he  would  restate  the  question,  and 
I  suggest  he  proceed  to  do  it. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  my  question  of  you  is :  On  a  date  not  desig- 
nated on  the  application,  did  you  not  make  application  for  employ- 
ment with  the  Twin  Coach  Company,  subsequent  some  time  to  your 
employment  with  American  Optical  Company,  in  which  application, 
that  is,  the  Twin  Coach  application,  you  failed  to  state  any  educa- 
tional attainment  after  Harris  High  School,  1939?  Please  answer 
that  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Wliat  is  the  pertinency  of  that  question  as  to  this 
hearing  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  The  pertinency  of  that  question  is  the  same  as  to  the 
other  related  questions  which  I  have  given  to  you  before,  and  ex- 
pressly the  same  as  that  to  the  American  Optical  Company  question : 
that  it  has  to  do  with  your  educational  attainments,  your  use,  or  lack 
of  use,  of  those  attainments,  further  identification  of  you,  illumina- 
tive of  your  activities  in  the  Communist  Party  concerning  which  we 
have  received  today  sworn  testimony. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Since  this  has  to  do  with  the  use  of  my  attainments, 
I  would  say  I  have  used  my  attainments  all  along. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  jMy  question  had  to  do  with  whether  or  not  you  did  leave 
blank  educational  attainments  after  high  school.  I  am  not  repeating 
the  question ;  I  am  indicating  what  the  question  dealt  with,  and  I  ask 
you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  see  the  application  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  may,  and  this  is  Sporn  Exhibit  No.  2  that  I  am 
handing  to  you. 

Mr.  Sporn.  You  ask  me  if  this  application  is  blank  in  what  spots? 

Mr.  HiTz.  My  question,  not  repeated,  but  related  to  those  state- 
ments of  educational  attainments  after  high  school.  Are  those  blanks 
calling  for  such  information,  are  they  not  left  blank  on  the  appli- 
cation ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Reading  from  the  same  application  which  you  had 
before  you  a  few  moments  ago,  yes,  that  space  is  left  blank. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  All  spaces  beyond  high  school;  is  that  not  correct? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes,  all  spaces  beyond  high  school,  rather  legibly  so 


1580    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

(Document  marked  "Sporn  Exhibit  No.  2"  follows:) 


Sporn  Exhibit  No.  2 


TWIN  INDUSl"Ki£S  CCvPjn.:y;-!_  rO^J-lEr^iy 
TWIN  COACH  COMPANY 

AIRCRAFT      •      MISSILES 
VEHICLE   COMPONENTS 

BUFFALO  25,  N.  Y. 


May  17,    1962 


Mr.  Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr. 

Director 

Conunittee  on  Un-American  Activities 

Mouse  of  Representatives 

Congress  of  the  United  States 

Washington  D.  C. 

Dear  Mr.  Tavenner: 

This  is  to  acknowledge  receipt  of  your  letter  of  May  14, 
1962  regarding  our  former  employee,  Paul  Sporn. 

In  accordance  with  your  request,  we  are  enclosing  herewith 
a  copy  of  his  employment  application. 


Very  truly  yours, 

TWIN  INDUSTRIES  CORPORATION 
Aerospace  Division 


i)(CTvllLv^ 


L.  R.  Peard 

Industrial  Relations  Manager 


LRPrRM 
End. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1581 


Sporn    Exhibit   No.   2 — Continued 


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1582    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 


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COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1583 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  did  you  receive  employment  with  Twin 
Coach  Company? 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  see  that  application  again,  please? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Yes, 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  notice  on  the  letter  sent  to  that  company,  that  the 
industrial  relations  manager — I  am  answering  the  question,  I  am. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  are  not  answering  it;  it's  not  responsive. 

Mr.  Sporn  [reading].  "This  is  to  acknowledge  receipt  of  your 
letter  of  May  14,  19C2  regarding  our  former  employee,  Paul  Sporn." 
They  considered  me  an  employee  of  their  plant.  Yes,  I  was  employed 
by  them. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  did  you  not  sign  the  following  statement  on 
the  application  for  employment  for  Twin  Coach,  which  I  am  going 
to  read  to  you  ?  "I  am  not  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  or  any 
organization  recommending  the  overthrow  of  the  United  States  Gov- 
ernment by  force."  My  question  is,  Did  you  not  sign  your  name  below 
that  statement?  I  w^ill  hand  you  the  same  exhibit  so  that  you  may 
answer  the  question. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Sporn.  What  is  the  purpose  of  this  question?  I  can't  quite 
make  out  the  purpose  of  this  question  now. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  please  hand  me  back  the  exhibit  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  the  question  that  I  asked  had  to  do  with 
whether  or  not  you  signed  a  statement  having  to  do  with  Communist 
Party  membership  or  membership  in  an  organization  recommending 
the  overthrow  of  the  United  States  Government  by  force  in  your 
application  for  employment  with  the  Twin  Coach  Company,  and  it 
deals  with  whether  or  not  you  were  then  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party. 

The  Supreme  Court  has  determined  that  the  questions  asked  of 
Mr.  Barenblatt  as  to  whether — when  before  the  committee — he  was 
a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  and  another  question,  whether 
he  ever  was  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  were  pertinent  and 
relevant  beyond  any  question  of  arginnent  before  this  committee,  and 
Mr.  Barenblatt's  conviction  for  contempt  was  upheld  in  an  opinion  so 
holding  in  the  Supreme  Court.  That  is  the  relevancy  and  pertinency 
of  this  question,  and  that  is  the  problem  with  which  you  are  faced  if 
you  don't  answer  it. 

Mr.  Sporn.  What  year  was  that  decision  made? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  have  stated  the  relevancy  and  the  law  on  which  it  is 
based.  I  ask  the  chairman  of  the  commitcee  to  require  the  answer  to 
the  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Since  this  particular  question  violates  the  first  amend- 
ment by  inquiring  into  one's  right  to  peaceably  assemble,  and  so  forth 
and  so  on,  I  refuse  to  answer  the  question  on  those  constitutional 
grounds.    I  am  sure  you  would  not  want  me  to  violate  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  moment.  Do  you  have  a  further  statement  to 
make? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes,  of  course  I  do. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  it. 


1584    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  sixth 
amendment  which  gives  me  the  right,  if  I  am  charged  with  a  crime, 
to  a  speedy  trial  and  to  confront  my  accuser  with  cross-examination, 
which  you  are  denying  me. 

Mr.  Pool.  Do  you  have  any  further  objections? 

Mr.  Spoen.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  14th 
amendment,  because  this  hearing  is  a  violation  of  the  due  process 
law  clause  of  that  amendment. 

Mr.  Pool.  Anything  further? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  this  amend- 
ment, the  fifth  amendment : 

No  person  shall  be  held  to  answer  for  a  capital,  or  otherwise  infamous  crime, 
unless  on  a  presentment  or  indictment  of  a  Grand  Jury,  except  in  cases  arising  in 
the  land  or  naval  forces,  or  in  the  Militia,  when,  in  actual  service  in  time  of  war 
or  public  danger ;  nor  shall  any  person  be  subject  for  the  same  offense  to  be 
twice  put  in  jeopardy  of  life  or  limb ;  nor  shall  be  compelled  in  any  Criminal 
Case  to  be  a  witness  against  himself ;  nor  be  deprived  of  life,  liberty,  or  prop- 
erty, without  due  process  of  law ;  nor  shall  private  property  be  taken  for  public 
use,  without  just  compensation. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  would  like  to  finish. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  we  go  off  the  record? 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Pool.  On  the    record. 

In  other  words,  you  are  also  pleading  the  fifth  amendment? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  pleading  all  the  amendments  that  I  have  cited. 

Mr.  Pool.  Do  you  specifically  plead  the  fifth  amendment? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  pleading  them  all,  and  I  guess  you  might  have 
recognized  that  amendment  that  I  just  read  to  you,  which  in  this  book 
is  article  V  of  the  Bill  of  Rights. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  do  you  contend  that  the  answer  to  that  ques- 
tion, among  other  things,  might  tend  to  incriminate  you? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  have  answered  that  question  already.  I  refuse  to 
answer  on  all  the  grounds  that  I  stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed,  Counsel. 

Mr.  PIiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  on  approximately  October  5,  1954,  did  you 
make  application  for  employment  with  the  American- Standard  Com- 
pany,^ or  a  name  to  that  effect,  in  which  application  you  stated  that 
you  had  theretofore  w^orked  for  the  American  Optical  Company; 
thereafter,  that  is  after  the  American  Optical  Company  employment, 
that  you  worked  for  the  Twin  Coach  Company,  and  in  this  application 
did  you  not  fail  to  list  any  educational  attainments  beyond  those  of 
the  Harris  High  School  ?  I  will  show  you  what  will  become  Sporn 
Exhibit  No.  3,  and  ask  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  It  seems  to  me  that  you  have  asked  about  four  questions 
at  once,  and  although  I  graduated  with  honors,  I  really  don't  have  the 
ability  to  follow  all  four  questions  at  one  time.  Would  you  like  to 
ask  one  question  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  would  like  you  to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Will  you  restate  it ;  it  sounded  like  four  to  me. 


^  American  Radiator  &  Standard  Sanitary  Corporation. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1585 

Mr.  HiTz.  Please  hand  the  exhibit  back.  On  the  application  that  is 
the  subject  matter  of  the  last  question,  did  you  not  leave  blank  those 
spaces  calling  for  your  educational  attainments  beyond  those  of  high 
school  in  which  you  stated  Harris  High  School  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  In  looking  at  the  application  which  the  counsel  just 
looked  at,  I  see  that  the  spaces  after  high  school  are  left  blank.  May 
I  suggest  that  the  committee  stop  wasting  taxpayers'  money  and  give 
me  all  those  applications  you  have  there,  and  I  will  run  through  them 
for  you  very  quickly. 

(Document  marked  "Sporn  Exhibit  No.  3"  and  retained  in  commit- 
tee files.) 

Mr.  Pool.  Be  responsive. 

Mr.  Sporn".  Why  waste  taxpayers'  money?  You  just  can't  come 
here  and  hold  session  all  day  long  and  waste  taxpayers'  money.  There 
are  a  lot  of  things  we  can  do  more  worthwhile  than  sitting  here. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  PIiTz.  Mr  Sporn,  the  next  question  is — and  I  am  going  back  to 
the  application  for  Twin  Coach  employment — and  I  will  ask  you :  Is 
it  not  a  fact  that  in  that  application  you  sought  employment  by  stating 
that  you  desired  employment  as  a  riveter  ?  I  will  hand  you  your  ap- 
plication, which  has  been  identified  here  to  you  as  Sporn  Exhibit  No.  2, 
for  identification,  and  you  may  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Sporist.  Would  you  restate  that  question,  please  ? 

]Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  asking  you  if  you  did  not  apply  for  the  position  of 
riveter  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes,  I  did.  It  says  so.  It's  not  quite  clear ;  the  "r"  on 
the  word  "riveter"  is  a  little  blurred. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  dispute  the  fact  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  No ;  I  said  "Yes."     The  word  is  not  very  clear. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  receive  employment  with  Twin  Coach,  as  a  result 
of  this  application  or  otherwise,  and  work  as  a  riveter  for  them  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  see  Sporn  Exhibit  No.  4,  is  it?  May  I  see  it, 
please  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  I  am  asking  you  whether  you  did,  in  fact,  work 
for  Twin  Coach  after  having  had  or  having  made  the  application  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  see  the  exhibit  ? 

]Mr.  HiTz.  I  will  show  you  again  Exhibit  No.  2,  which  is  the  Twin 
Coach  application. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Oh,  Exhibit  No.  2 ;  I'm  sorry.  I  got  the  number  wrong. 
I  think  you  asked  me  that  question  before  and  I  answered  it. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  asked  you  now.  I  did  not  ask  you  before,  I  do  not 
think.  I  ask  you  now  whether  you  actually  worked  as  a  riveter  for 
Twin  Coach? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Isn't  this  the  letter  I  read  to  you  ?  I  mentioned  the  in- 
dustrial relations  manager? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I'm  sorry,  sir.    I  am  asking  the  question  again. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  believe  I  answered  it  before.  Can  we  have  the  stenog- 
rai)her  go  back  over  the  record  to  see  if  I  did  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  he  should  answer  the  question, 
if  it  was  asked  before. 

a\Ir.  Sporn.  I  think  I  did  answer  it  before  and  I  want  to  make  sure 
that  I  don't  answer  it  differently.  I  would  like  the  stenographer  to 
read  through  that,  please.  It's  getting  very  difficult  with  all  these 
exhibits  to  remember  which  is  which. 


1586    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Without  reference  to  tlie  exhibits  or  your  application,  I 
am  asking  you,  Did  you  work  as  a  riveter  for  Twin  Coach  ?  It  calls  for 
a  factual  answer  based  upon  your  recollection. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  know  it  does.  I  am  asking  the  stenographer  to  see 
if  I  answered  that  question  before. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  1  ask  the  Chair  to  direct  the  witness 
to  answer  the  question.  He  can  answer  it  from  his  recollection  and  he 
is  well  aware  he  can. 

Mr.  Pool.  That  is  correct,  and  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes,  I  did. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  did  the  Twin  Coach  Company,  concerning 
which  I  have  asked  you  a  number  of  questions  including  the  last  ques- 
tion, have  defense  contracts  at  the  time  you  applied  for  employment 
with  them  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Are  you  referring  to  war  contracts? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  referring  to  defense  contracts  with  the  United 
States  Government. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  really  can't  answer  that  question,  because  I  did  not 
work  in  the  front  office  at  that  time  and  did  not  let  contracts  for  the 
company.    I  worked  as  a  riveter. 

Mr,  Pool.  State  the  next  question,  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  did  you  receive  employment  with  the  Ameri- 
can-Standard, or  a  similarly  named  company,  in  Buffalo  as  a  result 
of  your  application  to  which  we  have  made  reference? 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  see  the  application  to  which  you  are  referring? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  asking  you  to  call  upon  your  recollection,  whether 
or  not  you  worked  for  American-Standard. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Well,  American-Standard.  So  many  companies  are 
named  American,  I  would  like  to  see  the  application  so  that  I  can  see 
which  company  you  are  referring  to. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  showing  you  the  application  for  employment  with 
American-Standard. 

Mr.  Sporn.  And  the  question  you  are  asking? 

Mr.  HiTz.  "Wliether  you  secured  employment  with  them? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes. 

Mr.  PIiTz.  Will  you  please  return  the  exhibit  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  have  no  desire  to  keep  it. 

Mr.  HiRTz.  Wliat  work  did  you  do  for  American-Standard? 

Mr.  Sporn.  It  was  very  hard  work. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  type  of  work  did  you  do  for  American-Standard, 
Mr.  Sporn  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  have  that  application  again  ?  It  might  refresh 
my  memory. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  am  asking  for  your  recollection  as  to  what  type  of  work 
you  did. 

Mr.  Sporn.  As  nearly  as  I  can  recollect,  I  worked  as  a  cutter  there. 

Mr.  HiTz.  A  cutter? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  think  that  was  the  title  of  it. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  I  am  about  to  ask  you  a  question.  Do  you 
care  to  confer  any  longer  ? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  GOLLOBIN.   No. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1587 

Mr.  HiTz.  Approximately  March  28, 1955,  did  you  make  an  applica- 
tion for  employment  witli  Chevrolet  in  Tonawanda  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  May  I  ask  what  possible  objection  you  can  have  to  the 
honest  labor  that  I  have  performed  through  a  nmnber  of  years?  I 
assure  you  that  the  companies  1  worked  for  made  more  out  of  me  than 
I  made  out  of  them. 

[Applause  and  disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Fool.  Proceed. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  make  application  for  employment  with  Chevrolet 
on  approximatel}^  the  date  given ;  did  you  or  did  you  not  make  such 
an  application  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Would  you  repeat  the  date,  please? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  March  28, 1955,  approximately. 

Mr.  Sporn.  As  near  as  I  can  recollect,  yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  in  that  aiDplication  you 
failed  to  list  any  educational  attainments  beyond  those  of  senior  high 
school,  and  for  the  purposes  of  your  answer,  I  am  showing  you  Sporn 
Exhibit  No.  4. 

Mr.  Sporn.  This  is  getting  to  be  like  an  Alphonse  and  Gastone 
act  here.     One  doesn't  need  a  college  education  to  read  blanks. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  asking  you  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  looking  for  it. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  It  was  on  the  page  that  was  opened  when  it  was  handed  to 
you,  sir. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  sorry. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  please  return  the  exhibit  to  me,  and  I  will  turn 
to  that  portion  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes? 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  is  your  answer  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Would  you  turn  to  the  portion  and  I  will  take  a  look 
at  it,  please? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Will  you  look  at  the  exhibit  I  have  handed  to  you  and 
answer  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  For  the  information  of  the  Chair,  is  it  the  American 
Standard  Optical  ? 

Mr.  IIiTz,  No,  I  will  get  the  full  name  when  I  get  the  paper  back. 

Mr.  Sporn.  You  are  asking  about  the  blank  spaces  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  asking  about  the  blank  spaces  on  the  page  handed 
to  you.    It  requires  inspection  of  that  page  and  no  other  page. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes,  if  you  will  allow  me,  I  wnll  answer  it.  Yes,  the 
spaces  are  blank  as  anyone  can  see  who  looks  at  the  application. 

(Document  marked  "Sporn  Exhibit  No.  4"  and  retained  in  commit- 
tee files.) 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Ichord. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Pool  left  the  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  Ichord  (presiding).  The  last  question  in  which  he  stated  that 
there  were  blank  educational  attainments  in  spaces  calling  for  those 
was  in  an  application  for  Chevrolet  of  Tonawanda ;  the  day  on  that 
was 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  earlier  exhibit  had  to  do  with  American-Standard 
employment ;  that  was  Exhibit  No.  3.  Chevrolet  is  Exhibit  No.  4.  At 
a  later  time,  I  will  offer  all  of  these  exhibits  for  our  record. 

Mr,  Ichord.  Thank  you,  Counsel. 


1588    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  I  am  going  to  hand  back  to  you  for  inspection 
in  order  to  answer  the  next  question  the  Chevrolet  application,  which 
is  Exhibit  No.  4,  and  I  am  going  to  ask  you  this  question.  I  do  now 
ask  this  question :  Does  it  not  state  that  you — I  w^ould  like  to  strike 
that  question  or  portion  of  it  and  give  you  this  question.  I  am  going 
to  hand  you  the  application  which  is  concerned  in  this  question,  having 
to  do  with  Chevrolet,  and  ask  you  whether  or  not  you  did  not  state 
that  you  were  qualified  for  the  position  to  "read  micrometers"  and  that 
you  had  tools,  or  words  to  that  effect  ?  I  am  showing  you  the  actual 
page  of  the  application  containing  information  upon  which  you  can 
answer  my  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  No  matter  how  hard  I  try  not  to  make  a  farce  of  this 
thing,  the  committee  seems  to  be  not  willing  to  help  me  not  to  make  a 
farce  of  these  things.  I  happen  to  be  an  extremely  busy  person  with 
many,  many  things  to  do,  and  I  am  sure  the  Congressmen  here  are 
also  very,  very  busy ;  and  there  are  many  problems  that  need  solutions 
that  are  not  being  solved  here  now  in  this  courtroom. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  shall  read  from  the  application  what  anybody  else  can 
read.  I  did  say  that  I  can  read  micrometers.  Isn't  it  farcical  to  do 
this? 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Thank  you.    You  could  have  done  this  5  minutes  ago. 

Mr.  Sporn.  This  farce  could  have  been  ended  by  10  hours  ago. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  It  will  be  ended  as  soon  as  you  answer  the  question  when 
counsel  asks  it. 

Mr.  Sporn.  There  was  no  need  to  ask  self-evident  questions. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  courtroom  will  be  in  order. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Is  it  worthy  of  Congress  to  come  and  ask  questions  that 
are  absolutely  obvious  ? 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  Chair  is  not  here  to  argue  with  you,  Mr.  Sporn. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  not  arguing  with  you.    I  am  trying  to  help  it. 

Mr.  Ichord.  The  committee  is  not  here  to  try  you.  It  is  here  to 
gather  evidence  and  facts. 

Mr.  Sporn.  You  are  here  merely  to  ask  me  questions;  is  that  it? 
For  w4iat  purpose,  I  would  like  to  know  ? 

Mr.  Ichord.  Proceed. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  were  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party 
when  you  made  this  application  for  employment  to  Chevrolet  on 
March  28, 1955  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  counsel  for  this  committee  insists  on  violating  the 
Constitution  of  the  United  States.  Now,  why  does  he  insist  on  being 
so  un-American  ? 

[Applause  and  disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  Ichord.  The  Chair  will  advise  the  witness  and  the  demonstra- 
tors in  the  committee  room,  that  you  are  here  through  the  courtesy  of 
the  committee. 

A  Voice.  We  are  here  because  it's  a  public  hearing. 

Mr.  Ichord.  And  I  would  ask  that  the  lady  act  like  a  lady. 

A  Voice.  I  have  asked  you  to  act  like  an  American. 

[Disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Ichord.  The  Chair  is  not  here  to  argue  with  the  witnesses  or 
any  of  the  spectators.    Let  me  say  this  to  the  witness  in  the  chair,  that 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1589 

at  first  he  attacked  this  committee  as  being  composed  of  members  who 
are  opposed  to  civil  rights.  Let  me  advise  this  witness  that  I  am  a 
member 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  did  not  accuse  all  of  you. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  support  civil  rights  as  a  matter  of  conscience.  I  hope 
you  do. 

[Applause  and  disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  hope  that  the  gentleman  in  advancing  the  principles 
which  he  apparently  believes  in  today  also  holds  those  as  a  matter  of 
conscience.  I  do  not  intend  to  argue  with  the  witness  at  all.  We 
merely  want  the  facts,  and  I  would  ask,  Mr.  Sporn,  that  you  cooperate 
with  the  committee  and  give  the  answers  to  the  questions  of  the  counsel. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Mr.  Ichord,  I  am  aware  of  your  record  on  civil  rights 
and  I  deeply  respect  you  for  it,  but  there  are  some  members  who 
voted  against  it. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  the  witness  be  directed  to  answer  the 
question  and  we  proceed. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Will  the  stenographer  read  the  question. 

(The  reporter  read  the  pending  question.) 

Mr.  IciiORD.  Will  the  witness  answer  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  about  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Thank  you, 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  again  refuse  to  answer  this  question  because  I  will 
not  be  a  party  to  a  violation  of  the  Constitution.  I  refuse  to  answer 
a  question  which  delves  into,  which  violates  the  first  amendment  of 
our  Constitution,  which  gives  us  the  right  to  peaceable  assembly.  I 
also  refuse  on  the  grounds  that  the  sixth  amendment  which  allows  a 
person,  if  he  is  being  accused  of  a  crime  for  illegal  activit}'^,  to  a 
speedy  and  direct  trial.  Tliis  is  not  a  courtroom.  This  is  a  hearing 
room  and  it  also  gives  me  the  right  to  cross-examine  anyone  who  is 
my  accuser.  I  am  not  being  accused  of  anything.  This  is  a  pure 
violation  of  the  Constitution.    I  also  have  other  grounds. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Sporn,  You  criticize  me  for  interrupting  you. 

Mr,  Ichord,  You  are  going  to  get  to  the  important  one. 

Mr.  Sporn.  You  mean  the  others  are  not  important  in  this  Consti- 
tution ? 

Mr.  IciiORD.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  agree  with  you  that  the  one  you  have  in  mind  is  im- 
portant too.    It  has  a  long  history  in  our  country. 

Mr.  JoiiANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  the  witness  be  instructed 
to  answer  or  give  the  reason  for  declining,  and  cease  to  be  argu- 
mentative. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  not  being  argumentative.  Somebody  attacked 
our  Constitution  and  said  that  some  of  the  amendments  are  not 
important. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  14th 
amendment,  which  this  committee  is  now  violating  by  not  giving 
me  due  process  of  law,  and,  also,  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds 
of  the  ninth  amendment.  This  conunittee  is  denying  me  other  rights, 
which  I  shall  not  noAV  enumerate,  in  the  Constitution.  I  also  refuse 
to  answer  on  all  of  the  grounds  that  this  is  an  illegal  committee  to 


1590    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

begin  with,  and  I  answer  for  some  of  those  reasons  that  I  stated  be- 
fore, that  because  there  are  some  members,  not  all,  Mr.  Ichord,  but 
some  members  here  who  are  sitting  illegally  in  Congress,  because 
they  do  not  pennit  Negroes  to  vote. 

[Applause  and  disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Ichord.  The  Chair  will  again  advise  the  spectators  that  this  is 
a  public  hearing,  a  hearing  of  Congress  of  the  United  States  of  Amer- 
ica. We  are  here  to  gather  facts.  We  would  ask  you  now  to  cooper- 
ate and  cease  the  demonstrations.  Therefore,  the  Chair  will,  for  the 
final  time,  ask  that  you  please  cooperate  and  maintain  order.  The 
gentleman  declines  to  answer  on  all  the  grounds  previously  heretofore 
stated.  The  Chair  would  advise  the  witness  that  you  could  have  stated 
that  about  10  minutes  ago,  and  we  would  have  proceeded  with  the  next 
question.  I  believe  the  witness  said  all  of  the  other  grounds  hereto- 
fore stated  ? 

Mr.  Sporist.  No.  I  said  that  I  refuse  to  answer  because  this  commit- 
tee is  sitting  illegally  and,  if  you  want  me  to,  I  will  run  through  all  of 
the  reasons. 

Mr.  Ichord.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  answer  the  question,  and  you  keep  gavel- 
ing  me  down.    If  you  don't  want  an  answer 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  The  witness  is  taking  just  as  much  time  as  he  can. 
The  witness  knows  there  is  a  way  to  answer  this  with  a  minimum  of 
time,  and  if  you  will  do  so,  you  may  fully  protect  your  rights. 

Mr.  Sporx.  That  way  is  to  violate  the  Constitution  of  the  United 
States,  which  I  refuse  to  do. 

Mr.  Ichord.  Proceed,  Mr.  Sporn. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Proceed  with  what  ? 

Mr.  Ichord.  Have  you  concluded  with  your  answer  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  given  all  the  grounds  for  your  refusal  to 
answer  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  No,  I  have  several  others.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the 
grounds  that  this  committee  is  violating  article  III,  section  1,  of  the 
Constitution  by  impinging  on  the  powers  given  to  the  judiciary  by  the 
Constitution  of  the  United  States.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  that 
amendment  which  was  designed  to  protect  people  against  the  false 
accusation  of  informers.  I  don't  like  associating  with  informers,  in- 
cidentally. It  is  very  trjnng  to  be  in  the  same  room  with  one  today. 
The  Bible  doesn't  like  informers,  either.    Judas  was  an  informer. 

Mr.  Johansen.  I  suggest,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  witness  proceed  to 
answer,  and  discontinue  this. 

Mr.  Sporn.  No  person  shall  be  held  to  answer 

Mr.  Ichord.  The  witness  is  obviously  trying  to  delay  the  commit- 
tee. The  witness  will  proceed  with  his  answer  and  cease  with  the 
dilatory  tactics. 

Mr.  Sporn  [reading] . 

No  person  shall  be  held  to  answer  for  a  capital,  or  otherwise  infamous  crime, 
inaless  on  a  presentment  or  indictment  of  a  Grand  Jury,  except  in  cases  arising 
in  the  land  or  naval  forces,  or  in  the  Militia,  when  in  actual  service  in  time  of 
war  or  public  danger ;  nor  shall  any  person  be  subject  for  the  same  offense  to 
be  twice  put  in  jeopardy  of  life  or  limb ;  nor  shall  be  compelled  in  any  Criminal 
Case  to  be  a  witness  against  liiniself ;  nor  be  deprived  of  life,  liberty,  or  property, 
without  due  process  of  law ;  nor  shall  private  property  be  taken  for  public  use, 
without  just  compensation 


1 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1591 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Aiid  do  you  invoke  the  fifth  amendment  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  have  given  all  of  the  grounds  upon  which  I  refuse  to 
ans^Yer. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  it  appears  that  he,  among  other  reasons, 
has  invoked  the  privilege  against  self-incrimination,  and  I  will  move 
on  the  next  question  which  has  to  do  with  Exhibit  No.  5 — Sporn  Ex- 
hibit No.  5  for  identification.  I  will  ask  you  whether  or  not  you 
obtained  employment  with  the  University  of  Buffalo  at  some  time 
subsequent  to  your  employment  with  Chevrolet  in  Tonawanda? 

Mr.  Sporn.  In  answer  to  that  question,  I  would  like  to  say  that  I 
did  not  think  before  coming  here  today  that  I  would  have  anything  to 
be  thankful  to  the  committee  for,  but  I  do.    I  received  a  promotion. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  Chair  directs  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  received  a  promotion.  The  informer  promoted  me  to 
assistant  professor,  but  I  am  an  instructor  at  the  University  of  Buffalo, 
which  indicates  how  unreliable  that  informer's  testimony  is,  inciden- 
tally. 

Mr.  JoiiANSEN.  I  suggest  the  next  question  be  propounded. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  on  or  about  February  6,  1964,  were  you  em- 
ployed by  the  University  of  Buffalo  or  a  university  similarly  named? 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  fact  of  the  matter  is,  it  isn't  similarly  named  any 
more.  I  don't  know  what  latitude  you  give  me  on  that  phi'ase  "similarly 
named."  I  have  been  employed  at  the  University  of  Buffalo  since 
1951),  but  it  has  changed  its  name  since  then. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Up  to  and  including  the  present  day,  Mr.  Sporn  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  not  now  employed  at  the  University  of  Buffalo. 
It  does  not  exist. 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  State  University  of  New  York  at  Buffalo  was  the  in- 
stitution, to  your  knowledge,  on  February  6.  1964;  rvas  it  not,  sir? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Would  you  repeat  that,  please  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  The  State  TTniversity  of  New  York  at  Buffalo  was  an  in- 
stitution of  learning  in  the  State  of  New  York  on  or  about  February 
6, 1 964 ;  was  it  not,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes,  it  was. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  on  that  date  or  approximately  that  date  em- 
ployed at  that  university  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  On  or  about  that  date,  did  you  sign  the  following  certifi- 
cate: 

Anyone  who  is  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  or  of  any  organization  that 
advor-ates  the  violent  overthrow  of  the  Government  of  the  United  States  or  of 
the  State  of  New  Yorlc  or  any  political  subdivision  thereof  cannot  be  employed 
by  the  State  University. 

Anyone  who  was  previously  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  or  of  any 
organization  that  advocates  the  violent  overthrow  of  the  Government  of  the 
United  States  or  of  the  State  of  New  York  or  any  political  subdivision  thereof 
is  directed  to  confer  with  the  President  before  signing  this  certificate. 

:j:  :<:  ^  4:  :{:  4:  ^ 

This  is  to  certify  that  I  have  read  the  publication  of  the  University  of  the 
State  of  New  York,  1955,  entitled  "Regents  Rules  on  Subversive  Activities"  to- 
gether with  the  instructions  set  forth  above  and  understand  that  these  rules  and 
regulations  set  forth  as  well  as  the  laws  cited  therein  are  part  of  the  terms  of 
my  employment.  I  further  certify  that  I  am  not  now  a  member  of  the  Commu- 
nist Party  and  that  if  I  have  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  I  have 
communicated  that  fact  to  the  President  of  the  State  University  of  New  York. 

36-414—64 6 


1592    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

My  question  is,  Did  you  not  sign  that  certificate  on  or  about  Febru- 
ary 6,  1964  ?  And  I  will  hand  you  Sporn  Exhibit  No.  5  in  order  that 
you  may  answer  that  question,  and  I  am  handing  it  to  you  on  the  page 
in  which  the  information  called  for  is  located  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Is  there  anything  on  the  back  of  that  ? 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  witness  can  look  at  the  application  there.  Hand 
it  to  the  witness.   Let  him  take  a  look  at  it. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Again,  I  think  this  committee  is  violating  the  Consti- 
tution of  the  United  States,  and  I  refuse  to  answer  that.  I  am  going 
to  give  my  answer.  You  don't  allow  two  words  out  of  my  mouth  be- 
fore you  gavel  me  down. 

Mr.  IciiORD.  Answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  answering  the  question  if  you  give  me  a  chance. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Are  you  answering  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Well,  is  a  declination  not  an  answer  ? 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  refusing  to  answer  that  question,  because  in  asking 
it  the  committee  is  violating  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  and 
I  refuse  to  be  a  party  to  such  a  violation.  In  fact,  an  editorial  in  to- 
day's C ourler- Express  points  out  it's  more  loyal  to  be  true  to  civil 
liberties  than  it  is  to  be  necessarily  true  to  this  committee. 

[Applause  and  disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Sporn.  And  Daniel  Webster  also  said  that  "an  unconstitutional 
act  is  not  binding  on  the  citizens  of  this  country."  This  is  my  reason 
for  refusing  to  answer.    I  won't  be  bound  by  any  unconstitutional  acts. 

(Document  marked  "Sporn  Exhibit  No.  5"  follows :) 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1593 
Spoen  Exhibit  No.  5 
P.   Spom  English 

STATE  UNIVERSI1Y  OF  ItEW  YORK  AT  BUFFALO 

CERTIFICATE 


Anyone  who  is  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  or  of  any  organiza- 
tion that  advocates  the  violent  overthrow  of  the  Government  of  the 
United  States  or  of  the  State  of  New  York  or  any  political  subdivision 
thereof  cannot  be  employed  by  the  State  University. 

Anyone  who  was  previously  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  or 
of  any  organization  that  advocates  the  violent  overthrow  of  the  Govern- 
ment of  the  Ltoited  States  or  of  the  State  of  New  York  or  any  political 
subdivision  thereof  is  directed  to  confer  with  the  President  before 
signing  this  certificate. 

This  is  to  certify  that  I  have  read  the  publication  of  the  University 
of  the  State  of  New  York,  1955,  entitled  "Regents  Rules  on  Subversive 
Activities"  together  with  the  instructions  set  forth  above  and  understand 
that  these  rules  and  regulations  as  well  as  the  lav/s  cited  therein  are 
part  of  tlie  terms  of  my  employment.    I  further  certify  that  I  am  not 
now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Pajty  and  that  if  I  have  ever  been  a 
member  of  the  Communist  Party  I  have  communicated  that  fact  to  the 
President  of  the  State  University  of  New  York. 


Cate^  7^  Si^Kie""" 


1594    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 


Spoen  Exhibit  No.  5 — Continued 


Sine?  I    find    not  hi  or    in   th-   Fclr.'^r.rQ  Lav    tnit    pr<?ventn   Qrl. 
dltlor.ol  cnn^-T^ents   to  this   cortincote,   1    sbouia   ir  -   *o 
say    thn    follow!  nc: 


I    flu'^    t.bis   c^.vlificatR  and    the   Feinbert'  Law   riistfjate- 
ful  an-i   unbeiio:al  tr-  a   free  aov^roiLO  at-ite  trylu-  to  build  a 
univoraity   systcir,   of  tho   first    oraor.   It   d'^rconat  r' tes   fear 
an(3    Lnclf   o-f  confiddnce  In   the  syatota  it   ir.    aoulct'ed   to  pro- 
tect. 


It  est.o  ll^'ncs  atcn^a'-'.G  oth<-r  t'nrn  acnfl-v^lc 
Tea  lannl  c  ■^^;;3t  d;;o  <^.  It  Joea  oo  o.:'- -- -nlly,  l^y^-'a- 
Bribers  of  t;,e  profesnlon,  v;bo  n  r^j,  -^ftar  nil,  b-j- 
tinining,  te.uporc.nont,  ad  q"  p  f^  ri  n  nc^ ,  the  ouly  on^^ 
of  Ll<?t<?ruilnln3  wh^  t  ore  tl-^  b'-at  orit-jrir  for  Ir.vj 
teaohin-  coxpc.t  ence,  v-'hilc  rrc3Gr;lnc  that  oUjc'^t', 
thfit  untett.ii'iC  pursuit  o7  knowledge,  thr.  t  frc^  >:: 
of  infon^n  ti  or.  and  opinion,  oven  il  coot  rOTorclal , 
oal,  o;.:;  ■iRpOpulnr,  "I'lort  v.-'v>h- t  ca  ;bl  ij-  axel].., 
fruitful    r-.-.'^r^ch  way  be  aavorely   haiKp-rod. 


f-^r  pro- 

;  '"■     I',.  0 

-^uoo   of 

;-     CUpCblp 

Vlty, 

-Mj  •  n-e 

r.  A- 

Id  «7  D>;n  opinion,  tho  Lvm  nn^  ^ 
ijyi^liol  of  the  Ln'./,  o.re  thrk-.+  r-  '.o  ur■^ 
a -J  Ir'-^'-ional  applicotl  on  of  th<-.  Law, 
aa::uuptlon,  c.j.nc"  it  Z'^g^'  out  zf  th- 
unny  ao^cr  t:ii:.l:-r^  co"5iu 
i-eat  rai  nta   a  r^j   i  nyvl  ^rbl  e. 


oortifjc-f, 
uot    ui,r'^;  r 


cf  th:  v.o earthy    e'^'if, 
au  1  rrt;  tl  Ov^iol   ono,    dc 


Lie 
rch 

Inr 


Given   this  hcu,    \;hst   chail  v.'o  do  vlth    tbf   cloct    5  ..<j 
foun-j   in   th"  Declcirction   of  In  J  opendctics:    "ihat  v.-lTsnover 
any   i- Orm  of  Gover^Esant  bs'-oaes   f'.-st ru^t iv.-.   of    th"ao   ends, 
it   i3   the    Rifjht   of  tbo  people  to  alter  or  aboil  fjh  it,    onci 
to  intltute   tic-w   Covorn-dient,    layitif   itT    foundation   on   such 
prl  liciplos   nnd    or  •■  nl  ?!  tv-   its   pot-.'nro   it.   nuch    form  oa    aball 
aeein   ^;o,>t   lilc^ly   to   effect    their   c;.''fety  and   Happinesa," 
lGr3:?-rlly,    I   bollove  that   thia   is   a   sound    doctrine  and 
that   the  word   "people"  in  thg  po^.':*?fG  also   In-ludss  those 
of  ua  vh  ,1  are  tea  oh  era. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1595 
Spokn  Exhibit  No.  5 — Continued 
STATE   OF   NEW   YORK    ) 

>    ss: 

DEPARTMENT  OF  STATE  \ 

It  is  Hereby  rerlifietl,  Tkai    we  have  made  a  careful  and  diligent  examination 
of  the  indicea  of  Oaths  of  Office  on  file  and  find  no  record  of  the 
filing  of  an  Oath  of  Office  for  Paul  Sporn,  Professor,  University  of 
Riffalo,  Buffalo,  New  York,  for  the  years  1961  through  March  13,  19U. 


WITNESS     my    hand    and    the    of/icial    se.sl    of    the 

Department    of    State    at     the     City    of 

Albany  .  this         13th    day 

of  March,  one  thousand 

nine  hunJ'ed  and     sixty-four. 

"^     Secretary  of  State 

Mr.  IcHORD.  And  I  am  sure  that  the  gentleman  will  eventually  in- 
voke the  fifth  amendment.  I  suggest,  Mr,  Counsel,  that  we  proceed 
with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  I  am,  of  course,  going  at  once  to  proceed  to 
my  next  question,  wnth  the  understanding  and  belief  that  if  you  were 
not  invoking  the  self-incrimination  clause  of  the  fifth  amendment  to 
the  answer  to  the  last  question,  that  you  would  care  to  state  that  you 
are  not  claiming  the  self-incrimination  clause.  In  other  words,  I 
assume  that  you  do  claim  the  self-incrimination  clause  and,  therefore, 
I  pass  to  the  next  question.  You  have  an  opportunity  now  to  say  that 
you  do  not  wish  to  resort  to  the  self-incrimination  clause,  if  you  wish 
to  so  state.  I  do  not  hear  any  response  from  Mr.  Sporn,  Mr.  Chair- 
man, to  the  statement  that  I  made. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 


1596    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  therefore  the  record  will  disclose  what  is  apparent 
from  the  colloquy  just  had. 

Mr.  Sporn,  my  next  question:  On  or  about  February  6,  1964,  an 
individual  using  the  name  Paul  Sporn,  executed  a  certificate  which  I 
have  read.  I  want  to  ask  you,  Paul  Sporn,  whether  or  not  you  had 
ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ?  I  first  would  like  you  to 
tell  me.  Is  the  question  clear  to  you  or  do  you  not  understand  that 
question  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Well,  you  started  out  by  loading  it,  but  I  think  you  may 
have  unloaded  it  before  you  were  over,  but  restate  it  again. 

Mr.  IcHOKD.  I  am  sure  that  the  witness  understands  the  question. 
The  question  is:  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party?  Mr.  Sporn,  I  am  sure  that  you  can  answer  that  question, 
"yes"  or  "no." 

Mr.  Sporn.  Since  this  committee  has  no  right  to 

Mr.  IcpioRD.  Tliat  is  not  responsive  to  the  question,  Mr.  Sporn,  and  I 
direct  you  to  answer  the  question  as  stated  by  counsel. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  answering  the  question  the  only  way  I  know  how. 
If  you  have  a  prescribed  form,  why  don't  you  type  it  out  for  me  and 
give  it  to  me  ? 

Mr.  IciioRD.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  did  not  ask  about  the  relevancy.  I  was  about  to 
answer  the  question  when  you  started  gaveling  me  down.  You  seem  to 
want  an  answ^er  only  in  one  form.  Now,  this  is  America.  It  is  free, 
and  a  person  has  a  right  to  answer  the  way  he  wants  to,  doesn't  he? 
Especially  before  a  committee  of  Congress. 

[Applause  and  disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  think  that  is  why  we  are  here.  Don't  try  to  tell  me 
how  to  answer  a  question.     Let  me  answer  it  the  way  I  know  how. 

Mr.  IcnoRD.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Since  this  question  again  violates  the  Constitution  of  the 
United  States  and  is  an  act  of  the  committee  in  violation  of  the  Con- 
stitution of  the  United  States,  I  refuse  to  answer  this  question.  This 
committee  has  no  right  under  the  first  amendment  to  inquire  into  one's 
rights  to  peaceable  assembly.  It  is  also  a  violation  of  article  VI  of 
the  Constitution,  which  gives  a  person  who  is  accused  of  a  crime,  which 
I  am  not  being  accused  of,  the  right  to  a  speedy  trial.  If  you  have 
some  accusation  to  make,  give  me  the  right  to  a  speedy  trial  and  the 
right  to  cross-examine  those  who  are  my  accusers.  Under  those  cir- 
cumstances, we  may  get  answers.  You  are  also  in  violation  of  the  14th 
amendment,  which  is  a  violation  of  the  due  process  law,  and  therefore 
I  refuse  to  answer  on  those  grounds.  You  are  impinging  upon  the 
judiciary  powers  granted  to  the  judiciary  of  the  United  States  by 
article  III,  section  1,  of  the  Constitution,  and  therefore  I  refuse  to 
answer  on  those  grounds  and  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds 
of  the  amendment  which  protects  the  witness  against  false  accusation. 
This  is  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  it  the  self-incrimination  clause  of  the  fifth  amendment? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  have  answered  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  ask  you  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  have  answered  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1597 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  have  given  all  the  grounds  upon  which  I  refuse  to 
answer  the  question. 

]\Ir.  IcHORD.  The  witness  sufficiently  in^'okes  the  fifth  amendment. 
The  witness  is  not  required  to  answer  when  he  invokes  the  lifth  amend- 
ment.    Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

[Applause  and  disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  IcHORD.  And  a  great  right,  too. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  think  so,  too,  Mr.  Ichord. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  Chair,  in  order  to  clear  up  a  point  here,  the  Chair 
understood  that  the  witness  was  invoking  the  self-incrimination  clause 
of  the  fifth  amendment.     Were  you  or  were  you  not,  Mr.  Sporn  'i 

Mr.  Sporn.  As  I  stated  before,  I  stated  the  grounds.  I  stated  all 
the  amendments,  including  the  fifth  amendment,  on  which  I  refuse 
to  answer. 

Mr.  IciiORD.  Including  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  there  was  a  great  deal  said  about 
tliis  committee  violating  the  rights  of  the  witnesses.  Now,  this  com- 
mittee is  asking  you,  in  order  to  make  the  record  crystal  clear  and  in 
order  to  protect  you  through  any  invocation  of  protection  you  desire — 
if  I  may  have  the  attention  of  the  witness — we  are  attempting,  by 
being  specific,  to  invite  you  to  invoke  those  protections  you  seek  to,  and 
that  is  the  reason  you  were  asked  Avhether  you  were  invoking  all  of  the 
fifth  amendment  including  the  self-incrimination  clause. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  thought  that  I  had  made  that  perfectly  clear. 

Mr.  Johansen.  I  suggest  the  next  question,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  IciiORD.  Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  mean,  what  I  am  saying,  I  thought  I  had  made  per- 
fectly clear  my  answer  before.    I  said  that  before. 

Mr.  Ichord.  That  is  what  the  Chair  understood. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  at  this  time  to  ask  the 
chairman  to  receive  in  evidence  in  this  hearing  the  exhibits  that  have 
been  previously  referred  to  and  which  I  will  now^  identify  as  "Sporn 
Exhibits  Nos.  1,  2,  3  and  4,"  which,  by  way  of  saying  in  summary,  are 
applications  for  employment. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  If  there  be  no  objection  from  any  members  of  the 
committee,  those  applications  will  be  received  in  evidence. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  my  next  question  has  again  to  do  with  the 
Sporn  Exhibit  No.  5  which  is  the  certificate  which  I  read,  having  to  do 
with  Communist  Party  membership,  both  past  and  present,  that  would 
be  as  of  the  time  of  the  execution  of  the  certificate  on  or  about  Feb- 
ruary 6,  1964,  by  one  Paul  Sporn.  My  question  in  that  area  is,  and  it 
is  being  asked  after  you  have  declined  on  constitutional  grounds,  in- 
cluding those  of  the  fifth  amendment,  to  ask  whether  or  not  on  Feb- 
ruai-y  6,  1964,  you  had  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Cominmiist  Party. 
With  that  background,  I  ask  you  this  question :  On  or  about  February 
6,  1964,  had  you  communicated  the  fact  of  prior  Communist  Party 
membership  to  the  president  of  the  State  University  of  New  York? 

]\Ir.  Sporn.  I  am  going  to  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  a  num- 
ber of  grounds.  Some  of  the  grounds  that  I  have  not  used  before, 
incidentally.  One  of  the  grounds  upon  which  I  refuse  to  answer  that 
question  is  that  this  committee  is  now,  in  asking  this  question  and  ask- 
ing all  of  the  other  previous  questions,  attempting,  consciously  or 
otherwise,  to  inquire  into  an  area  that  has  always  been  protected  by 


1598    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

academic  freedom.  A  miiversity  exists  on  the  basis  of  free  inquiry, 
even  into  dissenting  opinion. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  giving  my  answer. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  interrupting,  Mr.  Sporn,  to  suggest  that  the  chair- 
man miderstand  tliat  he  is  not  stating  a  ground  of  objection.  He  is 
arguing  and  urging  a  ground  for  objection,  and  if  he  is  resorting  to  the 
first  amendment,  he  has  amply  covered  that  in  a  previous  objection  or 
objections  that  he  has  made.  Therefore,  I  think  he  is  subject  to  the 
admonition  of  the  Chair  at  this  time,  and  if  he  cares  to  rely  upon  the 
reasons  previously  given  for  refusal  to  answer  earlier  questions,  he 
may  do  so,  and  that  he  may,  however,  both  briefly  and  temperately 
state  any  objections  that  he  may  have  over  and  above  those  which  he 
has  already  stated  and  which  he  should  now  incorporate  by  reference. 

Mr.  Sporn.  That  is  what  I  am  trying  to  do. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Pool  returned  to  the  hearing  room. ) 

Mr.  Pool  (presiding).  Go  right  ahead  and  do  that  in  accordance 
with  what  counsel  just  said. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  refuse  to  answer  because  freedom  of  inquiry  on  cam- 
pus is  a  delicate  matter,  without  which  a  university  cannot  exist. 
Therefore,  I  refuse  to  answer  this  question,  because  it  is  an  invasion 
of  one's  private  beliefs. 

Mr.  Pool.  Do  you  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth 
amendment  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  refuse  to  answer,  also,  on  the  grounds  of  the  first 
amendment,  which  is  an  inquiry  into  one's  private  beliefs  which  this 
committee  has  no  legal  rights  to  inquire  into.  I  also  refuse  to  answer 
on  the  gromids  of  the  ninth  amendment 

Mr.  HiTz.  State  all  of  the  numbers  of  the  amendments.  That  will 
take  care  of  it. 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  wish  to  make  perfectly  clear  the  grounds  upon  which 
I  answer  it.  There  is  no  need  to  state  numbers.  Numbers  are  empty ; 
words  mean  something,  and  also  on  the  grounds — may  I  answer  the 
question  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sporn.  And  also,  on  the  grounds  which  denies  me  due  process 
of  law,  the  14th  amendment,  and  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds 
of  the  6th  amendment.  If  you  are  trying  to  accuse  me  of  an  illegal 
act  or  a  criminal  action,  then  allow  me  a  trial  and  allow  me  the  right 
to  cross-examine  those  who  are  my  accusers.  I  also  refuse  to  answer 
on  the  grounds  of  article  III  of  the  Constitution  which  prevents  Con- 
gress from  impinging  on  the  judiciary  powers,  and  I  also  refuse  to 
answer  on  the  grounds  of  that  amendment,  the  fifth  amendment,  which 
protects  me  against  false  accusers. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed,  Counsel,  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  hope  the  newspapers  print  that. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Sporn,  were  you  here  this  morning  in  the  courtroom 
when  Mr.  Berecz  testified  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Who  is  Mr.  Berecz  ?    You  mean  the  informer  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  witness  who  testified. 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  man  who  sold  his  soul  to  the  FBI  ? 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1599 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  man  who  did  not  sell  himself  to  the  enemies  of  his 
country ;  that's  who  it  is. 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  enemies  of  the  country  are  those  who  refuse  to  give 
Negro  people  the  right  to  vote  and  those  who  violate  the  Constitution 
of  the  United  States.  Those  are  un-American.  They  are  the  enemies 
of  this  country. 

Mr.  Pool.  Answer  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  that  he  be  given  a  further  de- 
mand to  answer  the  question  under  the  pain  and  penalty  of  possible 
contempt. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  your  question  again. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Were  you  present  in  this  hearing  room  when  the  previous 
witness  testified,  Mr.  Sporn  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  The  previous  witness,  you  say  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Yes,  I  was.    That  is  why  I  know  he  is  an  informer. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  care  to  deny  or  do  you  care  to  affirm  the  statement 
that  he  made,  that  you  were  present  with  him  on  tv/o  occasions  of  meet- 
ings of  individuals  in  branches  of  the  American  Communist  Party  in 
the  area  of  Buffalo  ? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Sporn.  You  pretend  to  be  trying  to  protect  my  rights,  but  you 
don't  give  me  the  right  to  cross-examine  that  person  who  was  testify- 
ing earlier  today.  That  is  one  of  the  violations  of  the  Constitution 
which  I  have  been  objecting  to  by  this  committee. 

Mr.  Pool,  Just  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  How  can  I  have  full  rights  in  this  committee  if  you 
don't  allow"  me  to 

Mr.  Pool.  Evidently,  he  doesn't  care  to  answer  the  question.  Pro- 
ceed with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  have  a  request,  before  proceeding,  that  Mr.  Sporn  be 
given  final  demand,  on  pain  of  possible  contempt  proceedings,  that  he 
answer  the  pending  question. 

Mr,  Pool,  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr,  Sporn.  Will  you  give  me  the  right  to  cross-examine  the  witness  ? 

Mr,  Pool,  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  pending  question, 

Mr.  Sporn.  Will  you  please  repeat  the  question? 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  repeat  it. 

Mr.  ITiTZ,  Do  you  care  to  deny  or  do  you  care  to  affirm  the  state- 
ments made  by  the  previous  witness,  that  you  attended  two  meetings 
of  the  members  of  the  Communist  Party  on  the  dates  and  times  he 
indicated,  in  the  Buffalo  area  ?  You  have  that  opportimity  to  affirm 
or  deny,  at  this  time,  in  the  same  public  forum  that  was  the  time  and 
place  of  those  statements  ? 

Mr,  Sporn.  You  are  asking  me  if  I  care  to  deny  or  affirm.  I  don't 
care  to  deny  or  affirm,    I  don't  care  to  deny  or  affirm. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question,  Counsel. 

Mr,  HiTZ.  Mr,  Sporn,  are  you  a  member  of  the  Progressive  Labor 
organization,  movement  or  party,  or  just  an  entity  known  as  Pro- 
gressive Labor,  at  this  time  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  Since  the  counsel  persists  in  asking  questions  which 
violate  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  I  must  therefore  refuse 
to  answer  this  question  on  the  grounds  that  this  committee  has  no 
right  to  inquire  into  one's  private  beliefs  or  to  limit 


1600    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Pool.  You  are  basing  it  on  the  grounds  previously  stated;  is 
that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  trying  to  answer  the  question.  May  I  answer  it 
my  way? 

Mr.  Pool.  If  you  are  going  to  take  all  day,  you  can't. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Wliy  don't  we  quit  now  and  go  back  to  the  work  we 
have  to  do,  the  important  work  we  have  to  do  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Go  ahead  and  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  We  would  all  be  better  off  doing  that  work.  On  the 
gromids  of  the  first  amendment,  which  prohibits  Congress  from  mak- 
ing any  laws  in  the  area  of  private  beliefs  or  to  limit  freedom  to  peace- 
able assembly.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  sixth 
amendment.  If  I  am  being  accused  of  any  illegal  activity  or  criminal 
action,  you  must  give  me  a  right  to  a  speedy  trial  and  to  cross-examine 
my  accusers.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  10th 
amendment.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  14th  amend- 
ment. The  committee  is  violating  due  process  of  law.  I  also  refuse 
to  answer  on  the  grounds  that  this  article  III  of  the  Constitution, 
which  prohibits  Congress  from  impinging  on  the  powers  of  the  judi- 
ciary. I  also  refuse  to  answ^er  on  the  grounds  of  that  amendment 
which  protects  me  from  false  accusers.  All  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth 
amendment. 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  all  right. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Sporn,  my  next  question :  I  asked  you  a  precise  ques- 
tion, giving  approximate  date,  in  reference  to  whether  or  not,  on  or 
about  February  6, 1964,  you  had  communicated  past  Communist  Party 
membership,  if  you  had  any,  to  the  president  of  the  State  University 
of  New  York  at  Buffalo.  I  am  now  going  to  ask  that  question  a  little 
bit  more  broadly  so  that  there  will  be  no  possible  confusion  with  re- 
spect to  the  date  involved  or  the  person  to  Avhom  such  a  communica- 
tion should  be  or  was  made.  My  question  is:  On  or  about  February 
6,  1964,  did  you  communicate  with  anybody  having  to  do  with  the 
State  University  of  Buffalo  anything  in  reference  to  any  past  Com- 
munist activity  or  membership  on  your  part?  If  you  made  such  a 
communication,  would  you  please  tell  us;  and  if  you  did  not,  would 
you  state  that  you  did  not;  and  if  you  care  not  to  answer,  would  you 
please  state  that  you  do  not,  on  various  grounds  previously  mentioned  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  In  what  way  is  this  relevant  to  the  legislative  purpose 
of  this  committee  today  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  It  has  to  do  with  whether  or  not  you  complied  with  cer- 
tain requirements  having  to  do  with  the  laws  of  the  State  of  New 
York  in  reference  to  the  State  University,  or  a  university  similarly 
named,  which  has  certain  areas  of  contact  with  the  Federal  laws  and 
areas  in  the  Federal  domain  which  are  subject,  not  only  to  the  laws 
of  the  United  States  in  that  regard,  but  to  possible  further  legislation 
in  fields  that  are  contiguous  to  those  of  the  State  of  New  York. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Are  you  saying  that  you  are  here  now  administering  the 
laws  of  New  York  State ;  is  that  your  purpose  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  stating  the  relevancy  and  the  propriety  of  that 
question.    I  now  ask  the  Chair  to  demand  an  answer  to  that  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  ask  this  question  ?  I  am  not  clear 
on  the  relevancy. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1601 

Mr.  Pool.  The  relevancy  of  the  question  has  been  stated,  and  I  now 
direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Counsel  said  something,  it  seems  to  me — I  am  asking, 
did  he  say  something  about  the  administration  of  the  laws  of  the  State 
of  New  York,  the  execution  of  the  laws  of  New  York  State  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr,  Chairman — I  hope  that  the  Chair  is  to  stand  upon 
the  statement  of  relevancy,  pertinency,  and  legality  and  validity  of 
the  last  question  as  stated  by  me — and,  therefore,  I  ask  the  Chair  to 
direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr,  Sporn.  Again,  I  refuse  to  answer  the  question  because  it  is  an 
invasion  of  the  academic  freedom  upon  which  the  university  exists, 
without  which  no  university  can  exist.  I  also  refuse  to  answer  this 
question  on  the  grounds  of  the  first  amendment.  This  committee  has 
not  any  right  to  inquire  into  my  private  beliefs  or  limit  my  right  in 
any  way  under  that  amendment. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  stated  all  of  these  amendments.  Just  tell  us  which 
amendments  you  rely  upon  and  we  will  get  on  with  the  thing. 

Mr.  Sporn.  Well,  perhaps  one  value  we  might  get  out  of  today's 
activities  is  what  we  may  learn  about  the  Bill  of  Rights,  is  about  all. 
Sometimes  we  need  to  relearn  that,  carefully. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  could  make  a  certain  comment  to  you  right  now,  but 
I  won't  do  it. 

Mr,  Sporn.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  sixth  amend- 
ment, which  gives  me  the  right  to  direct  cross-examination  to  the 
accuser  for  any  illegal  act  or  criminal  action.  I  refuse  to  answer  on 
the  grounds  of  the  l-lth  amendment.  This  committee  is  violating  the 
due  process  law,  the  clause  of  that  particular  amendment.  I  also  re- 
fuse to  answer  because  this  committee  is  violating  the  judiciary  pow- 
ers expressly  given  to  the  judiciary  in  article  III  of  our  Constitution. 
I  also  refuse  to  answer  on  the  ground  of  the  fifth  amendment,  which 
protects  me  against  false  accusers. 

Mr.  HiTz,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  that  it  is  perfectly  proper  for  a 
witness  who  desires  to  claim  the  self-incrimination  clause  of  the  fifth 
amendment,  to  .say  the  fifth  amendment.  If,  however,  he  makes  resort 
to  other  portions  of  the  fifth  amendment,  which  has  a  number  of 
clauses  in  it,  and  does  not  mention  the  self-incrimination  clause,  then 
the  self-incrimination  clause  has  not  been  invoked.  Mr.  Sporn  has 
said  that  he  is  resorting,  among  other  things  or  other  reasons  for  re- 
fusing to  answer,  to  the  fifth  amendment,  but  he  qualified  that  now  for 
the  first  time,  and  without  further  remark  what  he  .said  now  was, 
which  protects  him  from  all  false  accusations.  That  is  a  limitation 
upon  the  fifth  amendment  and  upon  the  self-incrimination  clause,  and 
it  is  not  clear  whether  he  is  resorting  now  to  the  protections  which 
will  afford  him  a  reason  not  to  answer  under  the  self-incrimination 
clause.  That  clause  protects  a  witness  or  an  individual  from  a  false 
prosecution  under  some  circumstances  and,  also,  a  well-founded  prose- 
cution. He  has  only  protected  himself  in  the  claim  against  a  false 
accusation.  He  should  be  advised  that  he,  nevertheless,  despite  what 
he  has  said,  may  be  faced  with  a  perfectly  proper  accusation  and 
further  proceedings. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 


1602    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Pool.  You  are  so  advised,  and  the  Chair  now  rules  that  if  you 
wish  to  invoke — do  you  wish  to  invoke  the  fifth  amendment  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  That  is  my  suggestion,  or,  if  he  wants  to  resort  to  the 
fifth  amendment  and  all  of  its  clauses  without  eliminating  any  with- 
out reference  and  innuendo,  that  he  do  that. 

Mr.  Pool.  It  has  been  so  explained  to  you.  Do  you  now  invoke 
the  fifth  amendment  in  an  objection  to  answer  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  When  the  founders  of  our  country  wrote  the  fifth 
amendment,  they  were  not  fooled.  They  were  not  w^riting  this 
amendment  to  protect  criminals.  They  were  writing  this  amendment 
to  protect  innocent  people. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  am  not  asking  for  a  speech.  Now,  if  there  is  further 
demonstration,  we  are  going  to  have  the  marshal  escort  you  out.  If 
you  want  to  stay,  stay  and  be  quiet.  We  are  trying  to  hold  a  hearing 
here  and  to  try  to  hear  the  witnesses,  and  these  demonstrations  are 
not  helpful. 

Mr.  Sporn.  They  were  tiying  to  protect  people  agamst  inquisitors. 

Mr.  Pool.  Are  you  relying  on  the  fifth  amendment  as  an  objection 
to  answer  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Sporn.  I  am  relying  on  all  of  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amend- 
ment. I  was  giving  you  some  historical  mformation  which  you  may 
sorely  be  in  need  of. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  have  no  further  questions  of  this  witness. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  is  excused. 

[Applause  and  disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Pool.  Marshal,  if  you  will  take  and  spot  the  people  who  are 
applauding  and  demonstrating,  on  the  next  occasion,  I  would  like  for 
them  to  be  escorted  from  the  room. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  we  recess  for  10  minutes,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  committee  will  stand  in  recess  of  10  minutes. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Mr.  Pool.  The  hearing  will  come  to  order. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Scioli. 

Mr.  Pool.  Will  you  stand  and  be  sworn,  Mr.  Scioli?  Do  you 
solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this 
committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  Godi 

Mr.  Scioli.'  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOSEPH   C.  SCIOLI,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 

NATHAN  WITT 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Scioli,  are  you  represented  by  Attorney  Nathan  Witt 
here  this  afternoon  ? 

Mr.  Scioli.  Yes. 

Mr.  PIiTz.  Will  you  give  your  full  name,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Scioli.  Joseph  C.  Scioli,  S-c-i-o-l-i. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  born,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Will  you  identify  the  counsel  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  did. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  don't  believe  you  have  identified  counsel  for  the 
reporter. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1603 

Mr.  HiTz.  Tlie  reporter  has  it. 

When  and  where  were  you  bom,  Mr.  Scioli  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  March  18, 1905,  Buffalo,  New  York. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  is  your  present  occupation,  sir  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  I  am  an  international  representative. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Of  what  organization  ? 

Mr.  Scioli.  The  International  Union  of  Mine,  Mill  and  Smelter 
Workers  Union. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  long  have  you  been  so  employed  in  the  union  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  Since  February  1944. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  are  your  duties  as  international  representative  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  Basically,  I  assist  the  members  of  my  organization  in 
this  area  to  bargain  for  better  contracts  and  for  the  resolvement  of 
grievances. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  "What  is  your  area  of  occupation  in  that  union  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  Principally  in  the  Buffalo  area. 

Mr.  HiTz.  With  what  companies  do  you  have  business  to  transact 
in  that  connection  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  The  companies  in  this  area  that  my  organization  has 
contracts  with  where  I  assist  the  members;  one  is  the  Anaconda 
America  Brass,  and  the  other  is  the  Samuel  Greenfield  Company. 
Another  is  the  Niagara  Falls  Smelting  and  Refining  Division. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Scioli,  Charles  Regan,  a  witness  before  this  com- 
mittee on  October  2,  1957,  testified  that  he  knew  you  as  a  member 
of  the  Communist  Party  and  as  an  official  of  the  International  Mine, 
Mill  and  Smelters  Union  in  the  Buffalo  area.  Was  this  an  accurate 
statement,  Mr.  Scioli  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amend- 
ment. 

Mr.  HiTz.  My  next  question,  Mr.  Scioli,  Mr.  Joseph  Chatley,  also 
a  witness  before  this  committee  on  October  2,^  1957,  stated  that  he 
knew  you  as  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  and  as  an  official  for 
the  International  Mine,  Mill  and  Smelters  Union.  Was  that  a  correct 
statement,  Mr.  Scioli  ? 

Mr.  Scioli.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amend- 
ment. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  just  so  the  record  is  straight,  that 
includes  specifically  the  self-incrimination  clause  of  the  fifth  amend- 
ment? 

Mr.  Scioli.  That  and  everything  else  in  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Pool.  Thank  you.   Let  the  record  show  that. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Our  next  question  sir :  Were  you  acquainted  with  Charles 
Regan  and  Joseph  Chatley  while  you  were  employed  as  an  official  of 
the  International  Mine,  Mill  and  Smelters  Union  ? 

Mr.  Scioli.  Same  answer. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Next  question :  Did  you  know  Charles  Regan  and  Chatley 
to  be  members  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Scioli.  Same  answer. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Next  question:  Mr.  Scioli,  a  previous  witness,  Mr. 
Berecz,  identified  a  number  of  individuals  as  persons  known  to  him 
as  colonizers  for  the  Communist  Party  in  the  Buffalo  area.    Included 


'  Actually,  Mr.  Chatley  testified  before  the  committee  on  October  3. 


1604    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

in  those  were  Norman  Sternbach,  Milton  Rosen,  Milton  Kaplan,  Hy- 
man  Rosoff,  and  Mortimer  Scheer.  Have  you  ever  talked  with  any 
of  those  individuals  regarding  this  phase  of  Communist  activity  or 
any  labor  activity  that  might  be  related  to  it?  I  am  referring  to 
colonization;  if  you  do  not  understand  the  question,  will  you  please 
tell  me? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  Same  answer. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Next  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Same  objection ;  fifth  amendment? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amend- 
ment. 

Mr.  HiTz.  With  respect  to  certain  particular  years,  Mr.  Scioli,  I 
want  to  ask  you  whether  you  were  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party 
in  1947,  1948,  1949? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth 
amendment. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Next  question :  Have  you  at  any  time  since  1949  officially 
separated  yourself  from  affiliation  or  membership  in  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth 
amendment. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Have  you  engaged  in  lobbying  activities  on  behalf  of 
your  union  in  respect  to  the  State  of  New  York  or  the  Federal 
Government  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  have  you  done  in  the  field  of  lobbying  for  the 
union  in  respect  to  the  Federal  Government? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  Petitioning  for  jobs,  for  civil  rights,  for  medicare,  for 
all  the  grievances  that  the  workers  have,  to  make  our  country  better 
for  all  the  people. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  do  that  with  the  Federal  agencies,  both  at  the 
seat  of  Government,  that  is,  Washington,  and  elsewhere? 

Mr.  Scioli.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  speaking  now  of  lobbying  in  the  Federal  area  ? 

Mr.  ScioLi.  Yes ;  we  have  had  meetings  with  Congressmen  in  Wash- 
ington and  also  in  Buffalo,  New  York. 

Mr.  PIiTz.  What  have  you  done  in  the  field  of  lobbying  for  your 
union  in  the  State  of  New  York  area ;  I  mean,  in  the  state  area  of  the 
State  of  New  York? 

Mr.  Witt.  Not  geographically? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Well,  it  would  be  geographical,  but  it  is  jurisdictionally, 
the  State  of  New  York  I  am  asking  you  about. 

Mr.  SciOLi.  Yes.  Well,  we  have  petitioned  the  State  legislature  for 
improvements  in  unemployment  insurance,  workmen's  compensation, 
mine  wages,  and  other  benefits  that  are  important  to  the  worker.  We 
have  definitely  took  a  position  in  this  area  opposed  to  "soak  the  poor 
taxpayers,"  and  we  propose  instead  to  raise  the  revenue  to  the  city 
of  Buffalo  and  the  county,  a  corporate  profit  tax  of  maybe  1  or  2 
percent. 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  have  indicated  certain  subjects  upon  which  you  lob- 
bied in  the  areas  of  the  State  of  New  York  jurisdiction  and  the  Federal 
areas.    Have  you  named  all  of  the  areas  then,  subjects  upon  which  you 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1605 

lobbied  federally  and  vis-a-vis  the  State  of  New  York;  do  you  under- 
stand my  question? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  It  isn't  too  clear ;  I  don't  quite  recall. 

Mr.  HiTz.  But  it  is  a  matter  of  your  best  recollection  to  which  you 
testify? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  To  the  best  of  my  recollection,  yes,  those  are  the  areas. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Therefore,  you  are  not  now  purposely  omitting  any 
areas  in  which  you  lobbied,  as  you  testified  today? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  No,  I  am  not  purposely  omitting.  When  I  refer  to 
"soak  the  poor  taxpayer,"  we  oppose  that.  This  relates  to  the  county 
area,  not  the  State,  but  in  the  county  and  city  areas. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  if  I  may  interject  at  this  point,  just 
to  complete  the  record.  Has  your  own  lobbying  activity  that  you  are 
describing  included  appearances  in  behalf  of  these  various  items  of 
legislation  before  committees  of  the  Congress,  personally  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  Together  with  the  membership  of  our  union,  various 
delegates  that  were  delegated  to  go  with  me  to  Washington  or  I  ac- 
companied them  to  Washington  or  to  Albany. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Have  you  yourself  testified,  that  is  my  question,  just 
to  complete  the  record ;  do  you  recall  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  Well,  those  are  the  areas  that  I  recall  in  which  we  have 
lobbied,  the  membership  and  myself  on  behalf  of  all  of  the  members. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  HiTz.  My  next  question :  Have  you  ever  attended  meetings  of 
labor  leaders  in  the  Buffalo  area  which  meetings  were  attended  by 
Andrew  Berecz,  who  was  the  first  witness  today  ? 

Mr.  SciOLi.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amend- 
ment. 

Mr.  HiTz.  My  next  question :  Have  you  ever  signed  a  noncommu- 
nistic  affidavit  as  required  by  the  Taft-Hartley  Act  ? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  ScioLi.  No,  I  have  not. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  You  are  aware  that  my  question  was,  Have  you  ever 
signed  such  an  affidavit  ? 

Mr.  ScioLi.  Yes.     To  the  best  of  my  recollection,  I  never  have. 

Mr.  HiTz.  No  further  questions  by  counsel,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  will  be  excused. 

Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Wolkenstein  is  our  next  witness. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  And  I  would  like  to  thank  the  previous  witness  for 
helping  to  expedite  the  situation. 

TESTIMONY  OF  EDWAED  A.  WOLKENSTEIN 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  have  counsel,  Mr.  Wolkenstein  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  No,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  gather  you  heard  me  ask  Mr.  Wolken- 
stein if  he  had  counsel.  He  said  he  has  not.  I  therefore  suggest  that 
he  be  sworn. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  Before  I  am  sworn  in,  I  would  like  to  express 
an  opinion  and  express  my  point  of  view. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Excuse  me.  I  suggest  to  the  committee  he  be  permitted 
to  give  any  legal  objections  that  he  may  have. 


1606    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  WoLKENSTEiN.  Well,  thank  you,  Counsel,  legal  objections. 

Mr.  .loiiANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  before  that,  I  wonder  if  the  record 
is  clear  that  the  witness  has  not  indicated  his  desire  to  have  counsel. 

Mr.  WoLKENSTEiN.  Yes,  last  time  in  1957  these  tables  were  bugged, 
and  I  will  refuse. 

Mr,  JoiiANSEN.  Will  the  witness  wait  until  I  finish?  I  want  to  ask 
the  witness  whether  he  is  waiving  the  right  of  counsel? 

Mr.  WoLKENSTEiN.  I  am  not  waiving  anything.  I  am  coming  here 
of  my  own  volition  without  counsel. 

Mr.  Pool.  If  you  have  objection  to  appearing,  state  your  objec- 
tions. 

Mr.  WoLKENS'i-EiN.  My  objection  to  this  committee  is,  in  the  first 
place,  it  is  constituted  illegally.  This  committee  exists  under  the  viola- 
tion of  the  first  amendment,  the  right  to  association  and  the  right  to 
free  thinking.  Secondly,  this  committee,  under  the  pretense  of  having 
open  and  public  hearings,  has  deliberately,  maliciously,  and  purposely 
forced  the  radio  and  television  to  be  shut  oft'  in  this  room.  Thirdly, 
it  has  deliberately,  purposely,  and  maliciously  prevented  a  larger 
hearing  room  to  be  utilized,  so  that  all  the  people  of  the  area  who 
wish  to  hear  what  goes  on  in  these  hearings,  would  be  provided  for 
them.  I  feel  that  this  committee,  in  the  fact  that  it  has  members  on 
it  that  have  been  elected  illegally,  the  State  of  Louisiana,  the  State  of 
Virginia,  the  State  which  denies  the  Negro  the  right  to  vote  and  many 
white  people  as  well,  these  people  have  been  elected  illegally  and, 
therefore,  do  not  represent,  truly,  honestly,  the  Constitution  of  the 
United  States.  These  people  were  represented  by  the  conscious  and 
deliberate  overthrow  of  the  reconstruction  government  in  the  South, 
and  by  the  denial  of  the  Negro  and  the  white  in  the  South  to  vote, 
particularly  in  the  States  of  the  two  Representatives  on  this  commit- 
tee, it  indicates  that  these  people  are  illegal  representatives  of  the 
American  people.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  they  don't  represent  the  Ameri- 
can people  in  that  area  at  all  until  they  give  and  grant  rights  of  the 
Negro  people  and  the  poor  white  in  those  areas  the  right  to  vote. 

Mr.  Pool.  Don't  make  a  speech;  just  make  your  objections.  If  you 
don't  have  any  further  objections,  I  will  swear  you  in. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  You  insist  on  keeping  us  here  after  suppertime. 

Mr.  JoiiANSEN.  Let's  have  the  reasons. 

Mr.  Pool.  Are  you  ready  to  be  sworn  in  now  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  Just  a  moment.  I  also  obj  ect  to  the  fact  that  this 
hearing  room  is  set  up,  not  as  a  hearing  room,  but  as  a  courtroom,  and 
it  has  given  the  popular  illusion  in  the  public's  mind  that  this  is  a 
courtroom,  and,  in  it,  a  hearing;  and  I  say  that  this  is  a  deliberate  plot 
on  the  part  of  this  committee. 

Mr.  JoiiANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  it  was  stated  here  earlier  on  the 
record  that  this  is  not  a  court  and  not  a  courtroom  proceeding,  and  I 
suggest  the  witness  be  sworn. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  Well,  I  suggest  that  this  committee  has  spent 
the  taxpayers'  money  by  the  thousands  upon  thousands  of  dollars,  and 
it  utilizes  the  purposes  of  congressional  immunity. 

Mr.  Pool.  If  you  are  ready  to  be  sworn,  you  will  be  so  sworn  now, 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  did  not  finish  my  statement  yet. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  suggest  to  the  Chair  that 
the  witness  be  advised  he  may  be  permitted  to  make  legal  objections. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1607 

but  if  he  is  going  to  make  an  attack  upon  the  committee,  if  he  is  at- 
tempting to  argue  tlie  objections  that  he  has  a  perfect  right,  we  think, 
he  has  to  state,  tliat  he  will  be  in  the  same  position  of  Eugene  Dennis 
was  when  he  was  cited  and  convicted  and  Gerhart  Eisler,  when  he  was 
cited  and  convicted  for  contempt. 

Mr.  Pool.  Let  the  record  show  that — and  the  witness  is  so  informed ; 
and  I  am  ready  to  swear  you  in. 

Mr.  WoLKENSTEiN.  I  did  not  quite  get  that  point ;  could  you  repeat 
that,  please? 

Mr.  HiTz.  My  point  is,  that  the  chairman  is  permitting  you  to  state 
legal  objections  to  your  appearance,  to  your  taking  the  oath;  that 
when  these  statements  that  you  make  go  beyond  the  presentation  of 
your  legal  objection  and  you  argue  your  objection  or  you  make  state- 
ments that  are  irrelevant  to  a  legal  objection,  or  you  merely  attack  the 
committee  in  what  does  not  constitute  a  mere  statement  of  legal  ob- 
jection, you  are  being  told  that  you  can  be  held  in  contempt  of  this 
committee,  as  Eugene  Dennis  was  and  Gerliart  Eisler  was,  and  they 
were  both  cited  and  convicted  for  contempt. 

Mr.  WoLKENSTEiN.  What  is  this  going  to  be;  guilt  by  innuendo 
now? 

Mr.  Pool.  Would  you  like  to  be  sworn  in  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  am  not  finished. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  will  overrule  you. 

Mr,  Wolkensteix.  The  Representative,  a  member  of  the  Dallas 
Chamber  of  Commerce,  ought  to  investigate  what  went  on  down 
in  their  fair  city. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  That  will  do,  and  I  will  direct  you  to  follow  the  in- 
structions of  the  Chair. 

Mr.  Pool.  Stand  and  be  sworn.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the 
testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  committee  will  be  the 
truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  do. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Wolkenstein,  will  you  give  your  full  name,  please  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  My  name  is  Edward  A.  Wolkenstein. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  spell  the  last  name  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  W-o-l-k-e-n-s-t-e-i-n. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  would  like  to  make  a  statement  now,  at  this 
point,  that  from  this  point  on 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  statement  can  be  responsive  to  the  question. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  It  is  in  response  to  the  question,  if  the  Chair 
permits. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  this  in  response  or  an  objection  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  In  response  to  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Please  listen  to  me.  I  would  like  to  ask  a  question.  Is 
it  either  in  objection  or  reply  to  the  question,  or  is  it  of  a  general 
nature  in  regard  to  your  testimony  now  that  you  have  been  so  sworn? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  It  is  in  general  regard  and  in  specific  to  this 
particular  point,  yes.     It's  both  general  and  specific. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Proceed,  please. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  will  take  every  protection  that  the  Bill  of 
Rights  affords  me,  the  1st,  3d,  4th,  .5th,  6th,  9th,  10th,  15th  amend- 

36-414—64 7 


1608    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

ments  and  every  safeguard  the  Constitution  affords  me  and,  there- 
fore, will  not  answer  any  questions  this  infamous  committee  will  direct 
to  me. 

Mr,  Pool.  Proceed. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Wolkenstein,  do  you  invoke  those  reasons  and  ob- 
jections to  the  answer,  to  the  question,  when  and  where  were  you 
born? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  already  answered  you,  sir.  I  have  taken  every 
safeguard  that  this  Constitution  affords  me. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  heard  what  you  said. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  And  I  take  every  Bill  of  Eights  protection  that 
the  Constitution  affords  me,  and  I  will  not  answer  any  questions.  This 
committee,  in  my  eyes,  does  not  deserve  to  be  answered. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  that  if  he  continues  to  do  this, 
he  is  in  the  position  that  I  have  indicated  before. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  your  objection  to  the  question. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  have  already  stated  my  objection.  I  have  taken 
every  legal  precaution,  every  legal  protection  that  the  Bill  of  Rights 
and  the  Constitution  offers  me,  and  I  will  refuse  to  answer  any  ques- 
tion that  this  infamous  committe  will  direct  to  me. 

Mr.  Pool.  May  I  advise  you  that  you  ha;ve  not  been  respon- 
sive to  the  question.  I  am  advising  you  that  you  have  not  an- 
swered the  question,  and  with  that  in  mind.  Counsel,  proceed  with  the 
next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  next  question,  Mr.  Wolkenstein,  please  give  us  a 
resmiie  of  your  educational  background. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  said,  let  the  record  state  that  I  have  taken  the 
1st,  2d,  3cl,  5th,  the  Gth,  the  8th,  9th,  10th,  and  14th  amendments  to  the 
Constitution,  and  therefore  this  legal  protection  does  not  obligate  me 
under  any  way,  circumstance,  to  answer  any  question  that  this  in- 
famous committee  puts  to  me. 

Mr.  Johansen.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  wonder  if  I  can  make  a  suggestion 
to  the  Chair,  and  even  possibly  to  the  witness,  that  it  will  expedite  mat- 
ters and  he  will  thereby  invoke  those  protections  which  he  states  that 
he  does  invoke,  if  he  will  simply  repeat,  not  necessarily  the  full  words, 
but  simply  invoke  those  protections  which  he  has  in  response  to  these 
questions  that  are  asked. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  Sir,  what  are  you  trying  to  make;  trying  to 
make  a  public  believe  that  anybody  that  takes  the  fifth  amendment 
is  a  Coimnunist?  Wliat  about  Bethlehem  that  has  taken  it,  Westing- 
house  that  has  taken  it,  what  about  the  big  businessmen  that  liave  taken 
the  fifth  amendment?  You  don't  call  them  "fifth  amendment  big 
businessmen." 

Mr.  Pool.  You  will  be  taken  from  the  courtroom  if  there  is  an- 
other demonstration  that  occurs. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  Let  me  have  my  say.  What  is  this?  The 
United  States  or  is  this  the  Hitler-Germany  regime  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  will  be  seated.  You  are  going  to  be  held  in 
contempt. 

Mrs.  Wolkenstein.  Don't  tell  him  that.  You  insulted  our  whole 
family. 

Mr.  Pool.  Remove  that  lady. 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  You  will  not  remove  that  lady. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1609 

Mrs.  WoLKENSTEiN.  I  will  not  leave. 

Mr.  WoLKENSTEiN.  Yoli  leave  her  alone. 

Mrs.  WoLKENSTEiN".  I  will  slap  you  if  you  touch  me;  that's  my  hus- 
band. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  order  that  lady  removed  to  the  hall. 

[Disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Pool.  The  U.S.  marshal  has  assured  me  that  there  will  be  order 
in  this  courtroom,  so  we  will  try  to  proceed.    Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Wolkenstein,  what  is  your  present  occupation  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  have  indicated  to  this  committee  I  will  not 
answer  any  further  questions.  I  have  already  taken  every  legal  pro- 
tection that  the  Bill  of  Rights  and  the  Constitution  affords  me. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Would  it  suit  your  purpose  if  I  asked  all  the  questions? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  It  will  not  suit  my  purpose  at  all.  You  will  be 
w^asting  my  time,  the  taxpayers'  time.  Release  me  from  here,  and  I 
will  go  out  and  do  my  political  work ;  and  if  you  have  any  kind  of  a 
criminal  charge  against  me,  bring  it  to  a  court  of  law  and  bring  me 
up  for  indictment.  If  you  don't  have  a  criminal  charge,  then  all  you 
have  been  doing,  just  like  this  committee  did  in  1957,  is  force  me  to 
lose  my  job  as  at  Bethlehem  Steel,  and  that's  all. 

Mr.  Pool.  Would  you  ask  him  another  question,  Counselor? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  asked  him  a  question  a  little  while  ago,  and  this  is  what 
happened.  My  next  question :  How  long  have  you  been  in  your  pres- 
ent place  of  employment  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  have  already  indicated  I  will  not  answer  any 
further  questions,  based  on  the  fact  that  I  have  already  taken  the  con- 
stitutional privileges  afforded  me.  I  will  not  cooperate  with  this  com- 
mittee in  one  single  degree. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Wolkenstein,  are  you  acquainted  with  Andrew 
Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  won't  cooperate  with  this  man.  I  won't  answer 
any  questions.  I  have  already  taken  the  constitutional  privilege.  I 
stand  on  my  previous  statement. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Have  you  ever  attended  meetings  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  stand  on  my  previous  statement. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  haven't  finished  my  question.  Have  you  ever  attended 
Communist  Party  meetings  with  Mr.  Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  I  stand  on  my  previous  statement,  and  all  this 
committee  is  continuing  to  do  is  harass  me. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  expelled  from  the  Communist  Party,  in  ap- 
proximately 1961,  by  Mr.  Davis  from  New  York  headquarters? 

Mr.  Wolkenstein.  It  is  quite  clear  that  I  already  have  stated  and 
I  stand  on  my  previous  statement  and  that  this  is  just  a  sheer  w^aste 
of  time,  wasting  the  taxpayers'  money  by  people  wdio  are  not  con- 
cerned with  the  rights  of  the  workingman,  Negro  or  white,  not  con- 
cerned with  helping  people. 

Mr.  Pool.  Ask  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  ]Mr.  Chairman,  before  asking  the  next  question,  I  would 
like  to  suggest  that  unless  there  is  legal  objection  made  temperately 
and  briefly  by  reference  to  other  objections  or  by  stating  them  again, 
but  briefly  and  temperately,  and  if  this  witness  enters  into  an  attack 


1610    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

upon  the  procedures  of  this  committee  or  the  committee,  that  it  attempt 
to  restore  order,  that  it  inform  this  witness  that  further  attacks  and 
statements  not  relevant  to  legal  objections  and  not  by  way  of  summary 
of  those  previously  given,  will  constitute  a  contempt  of  this  committee, 
and  I  am  going  to  recommend  that  this  committee  take  steps  to  see 
whether  or  not  this  is  a  contempt  that  is  prosecutable  as  attempts  made 
by  Eugene  Dennis  and  Gerhart  Eisler.  My  question :  Are  you  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement  party  or  organization? 

Mr.  WoLKENSTEiN.  As  I  liave  already  previously  indicated,  I  have 
taken  my  constitutional  privileges  and  will  refuse  to  answer  any  ques- 
tion that  this  infamous  committee  has  to  offer. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Next  question :  Do  you  know  Mortimer  Scheer,  Gertrude 
Alexander,  and  Walter  Zvaleko  to  be  members  of  the  Progressive 
Labor  Movement  party  or  organization  ? 

Mr.  WoLKENSTEiN.I  have  already  answered  the  question  as  I  will 
answer  all  further  questions,  that  I  have  taken  all  the  constitutional 
privileges  afforded  me  and  I  do  not  cooperate  with  this  committee. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  no  further  questions  of  this  wit- 
ness. 

Mr.  Poor..  You  are  excused. 

We  will  recess  until  7 :30  tonight. 

(Whereupon,  at  6 :05  p.m.  Wednesday,  April  29,  1964,  the  subcom- 
mittee recessed,  to  reconvene  at  7 :30  p.m.  the  same  day) . 

EVENING  SESSION,  WEDNESDAY,  APRIL  29,  1964 

(The  subcommittee  reconvened  at  7:45  p.m.,  Hon.  Joe  R.  Pool, 
chairman  of  the  subcommittee,  presiding.) 

(Subcommittee  members  present:  Representatives  Pool,  Johansen, 
fchord,  and  Ashbrook.) 

Mr.  Pool.  This  committee  will  be  in  order.   Take  your  seats. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  The  next  witness  is  Seymour  Rudner. 

'TESTIMONY  OF  SEYMOUR  RUDNER,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 
STANLEY  FAULKNER 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  stand  and  be  sworn  ? 

Mr.  Rudner.  Before  I  am  sworn,  I  have  no  statement  of  my  own  to 
make,  but,  however,  I  have  some  statements  here  which  I  would  like 
to  enter  into  the  record  before  I  am  sworn.  These  are  statements, 
not  of  my  own,  but  an  editorial  from  the  Buffalo  Courier  Express,  a 
statement  by  the  Buffalo  Board  of  Rabbis,  a  statement  by  the  Catholic 
Counsel  on  Civil  Liberties,  and  a  statement  by  the  Episcopal  Diocese 
of  western  New  York.  May  I  be  permitted  to  enter  the  statements 
into  the  record  before  we  proceed  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  We  will  take  those  under  advisement,  if  you  will  give 
^hem  to  counsel.    We  will  check  on  them  at  a  later  date. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give 
before  this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing 
but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I  do. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Rudner,  will  you  give  your  full  name,  please  ? 

Mr.  Rudner.  My  name  is  Seymour  Rudner,  R-u-d-n-e-r. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1611 

Mr.  HiTz.  Spell  your  lirst  name. 

Mr.  RuDNER.  S-e-y-in-o-ii-r. 

Mr.  Ilrrz.  Are  you  also  known  as  Sy  ? 

Mr.  EuDNEK.  That  is  correct. 

JNlr.  HiTz.  Where  and  when  were  you  born,  Mr.  Rudner  ? 

Mr.  RuDNEK.    Miiy  I  have  your  name,  please,  sir  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  My  name  is  William  Hitz.  I  am  counsel  for  the  Un- 
American  Activities  Connnitiee. 

JMr.  RuDNEK.  Mr.  Hitz,  I  am  going  to  decline  to  answer  that  ques- 
tion on  the  grounds  that  a  witness  in  a  criminal  proceeding  may  not  be 
compelled  to  be  a  witness  against  himself. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Have  you  stated  your  full  and  complete  objection  to  that 
question  ? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Rudner.  Would  you  repeat  the  question  please? 

Mr.  Hitz.  When  you  stated  your  objection,  is  that  the  full  and 
complete  objection  that  you  have  to  answering  the  question? 

Mr.  Rudner.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Hitz.  When  you  say  that  in  a  criminal  case  you  are  not  re- 
quired to  make  the  answer,  are  you  suggesting  that  this  hearing  is  a 
criminal  case  or  so  that  you  need  not  resort  to  answers  that  may 
incriminate  you  under  the  hf  th  amendment  ? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I  have  been  advised  that,  under  the  protection  of  the 
Hfth  amendment,  I  cannot  bo  compelled  to  be  a  witness  against  myself, 
and  I  stand  on  that. 

Mr.  Hitz.  You  are  correct  in  that.  Would  you  please  give  us  a  re- 
sume of  your  educational  background  ? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I  will  give  the  conmiittee  nothing  except  a  statement 
that  1  have  already  made  and  I  will  repeat  those  grounds  if  you  wish 
me  to,  but  I  will  decline  to  answer  that  question  and  any  other  ques- 
tion you  may  ask  me  on  the  same  precise  grounds. 

Mr.  Hitz.  That  is,  the  fifth  amendment? 

Mr.  Rudner.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Pool,  Next  question. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Next  question :  What  is  your  em]doyment  background  ? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  (he  grounds  which 
1  previously  have  stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Do  you  receive  any  funds  at  this  time  by  reason  of  em- 
]>lovment  in  anyplace  or  orgaliization  that  is  in  part  subsidized  by 
Federal  funds? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I  decline  to  answer  this  question  on  the  same  grounds 
whicli  I  stated  previously. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  quest  ion . 

Mr.  Hitz.  Wliere  are  you  presently  employed,  sir? 

Mr.  Ritdner.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds 
which  T  have  already  stated. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Do  you  know  Andrew  Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Rudner.  t  decline  to  answer  this  question  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Would,  you  mind  if  I  ask  the  question  before  you  decline? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I'm  sorry. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Do  you  decline  to  answer  the  question  whether  you  knew 
Andrew  Berecz  who  testified  this  morning  ? 


1612    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  RuDNER.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pool.  On  what  grounds  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  On  the  grounds  which  I  have  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  it  not  true  that  in  the  hitter  part  of  1961  and  in  the 
early  part  of  1962  you  were  appointed  a  member  of  the  secretariat  of  the 
Communist  Party  in  Buffalo,  which  group  became  the  ranking  body 
of  the  Communist  Party  in  Buffalo  after  the  expulsion  of  Mortimer 
Scheer  from  the  party  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  1  decline  to  answer  that  question  as  well  on  the  grounds 
previously  stated. 

Mr,  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  it  not  true  that  in  July  1962  you  were  a  member  of  the 
secretariat  of  the  Communist  Party  in  Buffalo,  along  with  Marty 
Zelman  and  Anthony  Mnssa  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons 
as  stated  previously. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  Mr. 
Rudner  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  grounds  which 
I  have  already  given  to  you. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  it  not  true  that  you  were  appointed  to  your  present 
position  in  the  Communist  Party  by  Betty  Gannett  Tormey,  as  a 
result  of  a  meeting  held  in  the  home  of  Marty  Zelman  in  September 
1962? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  there  any  degree  of  cooperation  between  your  group 
and  that  of  Mortimer  Scheer  of  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement 
group  or  organization  on  matters  involving  Cuba? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  My  counsel  would  like  to  Iniow  what  group  you  are 
referring  to  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  referring  to  an  organization  known  as  Progressive 
Labor,  Progressive  Labor  Movement,  or  Progressive  Labor  group. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr,  Rudner.  Would  you  repeat  the  question  ? 

Mr.  HiRTz.  The  question  is :  Is  there  any  degree  of  cooperation  be- 
tween the  group  in  which  you  are  a  member  and  that  of  Mortimer 
Scheer  of  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement,  party,  or  organization 
on  matters  involving  Cuba  ? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I  would  lilce  counsel  for  the  committee  to  state  what 
group  he  is  referring  to  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  referring  to  the  two  groups,  one  in  which  it  is  be- 
lieved that  you  belong  and  that  in  which  I  am  asking  you,  are  you  in 
a  degree  of  cooperation 

]\Ir,  Rudner,  Would  you  specify  the  group  that  you  say  I  belong  to  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Yes.   The  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  Rudner.  Of  course,  I  decline  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  HiTz.  My  question  is  clear ;  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Rudner.  Oh,  very  clear. 

Mr.  Pool.  On  the  same  grounds  previously  stated  ? 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1613 

Mr.  RuDNER.  On  the  same  gTouiids  previously  stated. 

Mr,  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Is  there  a  degree  of  cooperation  between  your  group, 
which  I  mean  the  Communist  Party,  and  the  Progressive  Labor  group 
on  the  matter  of  Red  China  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  group  known  as  the  profes- 
sional group  of  the  Communist  Party  in  the  Buffalo  area  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Are  you  a  meml)er  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds 
as  I  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Are  you  employed  and  connected  with  the  Health  Re- 
search, Incorporated  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds 
as  I  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  Healtli  Research,  Incorporated  a  subsidiary  or  an 
adjunct  of  the  Roswell  Park  Memorial  Institute? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds 
which  I  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  When  did  you  come  to  Buffalo? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  come  from  New  York  City  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question,  as  well,  on  the  same 
grounds. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  been  a  colonizer  in  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  haven't  asked  it  yet.  Have  you  been  a  colonizer  in 
the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds 
as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Have  you  ever  w^orked  for  the  American  Radiator 
Company  ? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question,  as  well,  on  the  same 
grounds. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Are  you  now  studying  at  the  State  University  of  Buffalo, 
KewYork? 

Mr.  RuDNER.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question ;  same  grounds. 

Mr.  Pool.  Further  questions,  Comisel  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  do.  Mr.  Rudner,  are  you  aware  whether  or  not  the 
Roswell  Park  Memorial  Institute  is  the  recipient  of  any  Federal  funds 
at  this  time? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds 
previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Or  whether  the  Health  Research,  Incorporated,  is  the  re- 
cipient of  such  funds? 

Mr.  Rudner.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  last  declination,  you  say  you  decline  to  answer  the 
question.    On  what  grounds;  ou  the  grounds  previously  stated? 

Mr.  Rudner.  Yes,  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  is  excused. 


1614    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Faulkner.  Mr.  Chairman,  one  moment.  Can  we  have  as  an 
exhibit  added  to  the  testimony  of  this  witness  either  an  original  or 
facsimile  of  the  white  card  that  has  been  used  for  gaining  admission 
to  these  hearings?  I  raised  this  on  the  basis  of  my  opening  statement 
to  this  committee,  that  there  has  been  a  viohition  of  the  rules  of  this 
committee. 

Mr.  Pool.  We  will  take  that  under  advisement.  Turn  it  over  to 
counsel.     Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Gertrude  Alexander. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  liave  made  an  agreement,  now  formalized  with 
counsel,  that  we  will  call  tliat  client  tomorrow. 

Mr.  Pool.  Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  the  chairman  indulge  me  a  moment,  please  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Helen  Schwartz,  please. 

TESTIMONY  OF  HELEN  SCHWARTZ,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 

lEA  GOLLOBIN 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  are  Mr.  GoUobin,  are  you,  sir  ? 

Mr.  GoLLOBiN.  Yes, 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  would  like  to  make  a  statement. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  the  witness  be  sworn,  Mr.  Chairman, 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  would  like  to  make  several  legal  objections  to 
this  hearing. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Go  right  ahead  and  make  it, 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  would  like  to  say,  first  of  all,  that  I  feel  this  hear- 
ing is  illegally  held  on  several  grounds :  one  is  that  it  is  unconstitu- 
tional, 

Mr,  JoHANSEN,  I  wonder  if  the  vritness  would  bring  the  microphone 
a  little  closer.     Thank  you, 

Mrs,  Schwartz,  On  the  grounds  of  the  first  amendment,  which 
states  that : 

Congress  shall  make  no  law  respecting  an  establishment  of  religion,  or  pro- 
hibiting the  free  exercise  thereof ;  or  of  abridging  the  freedom  of  speech,  or  of 
the  press ;  or  the  right  of  the  people  peaceably  to  assemble,  and  to  petition  the 
Government  for  a  redress  of  grievances. 

On  the  grounds  of  the  sixth  amendment  which  states : 

In  all  criminal  prosecutions,  the  accused  shall  enjoy  the  right  to  a  speedy  and 
public  trial,  by  an  impartial  jury  of  the  State  and  district  wherein  the  crime 
shall  have  been  committed,  which  district  shall  liave  been  previously  ascertained 
by  law,  and  to  be  informed  of  the  nature  and  cause  of  the  accusation ;  to  be  con- 
fronted with  the  witnesses  against  him ;  to  have  the  compulsory  process  for  ob- 
taining witnesses  in  his  favor,  and  to  have  the  assistance  of  counsel  for  his 
defense. 

On  the  grounds  of  the  ninth  amendment,  which  states : 

The  enumeration  in  the  Constitution,  of  certain  rights,  shall  not  be  construed 
to  deny  or  disparage  others  retained  by  the  people. 

And  I  maintain  that  the  rights  of  my  family,  my  right  of  privacy 
and  right  of  my  beliefs  and  my  husband's  beliefs  are  being  violated, 
and  the  purposes  of  this  committee 

Mr,  Pool.  This  is  going  to  be  a  warning,  if  there  are  any  demon- 
strations, I  am  going  to  ask  the  marshal  to  eject  the  ones  that  are 
demonstrating. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1615 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  The  powers  on  the  grounds  of  article  X,  I  thmk 
the  gentleman  would  do  well  to  reread,  the  Bill  of  Rights : 

The  powers  not  delegated  to  the  United  States  by  the  Constitution,  nor  pro- 
hibited by  it  to  the  States,  are  reserved  to  the  States  respectively,  or  to  the  people. 

We,  the  People. 

On  the  grounds  of  the  14th  amendment,  section  1,  which  in  part 
states : 

No  state  shall  make  or  enforce  any  law  which  shall  abridge  the  privileges  or 
immunities  of  citizens  of  the  United  States ;  nor  shall  any  State  deprive  any  per- 
son of  life,  liberty,  or  property,  without  due  process  of  the  law ;  nor  deny  to  any 
person  within  its  jurisdiction  the  equal  protection  of  the  laws. 

You  gentlemen  are  using  extra  legal  methods. 
On  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment : 

No  person  shall  be  held  to  answer  for  a  capital,  or  otherwise  infamous  crime, 
unless  on  a  presentment  of  indictment  of  a  Grand  Jury,  except  in  cases  arising 
in  the  land  or  naval  forces,  or  in  the  Militia,  when  in  actual  service  in  time  of 
war  or  public  danger ;  nor  shall  any  person  be  subject  for  the  same  offense  to  be 
twice  put  in  jeopardy  of  life  or  limb  ;  nor  shall  be  compelled  in  any  criminal  case 
to  be  a  witness  against  himself ;  nor  be  deprived  of  life,  liberty,  or  property,  with- 
out due  process  of  law ;  nor  shall  private  property  be  taken  for  public  use,  with- 
out just  compensation. 

I  am  not  finished,  if  the  gentlemen  would  be  patient. 

I  claim  that  this  hearing  is  illegal  on  the  grounds  that  this  is  not  a 
public  hearing,  that  special  passes  were  issued,  that  there  was  not 
freedom  for  everybody  to  come  into  this  courtroom  on  a  first-come- 
first-serve  basis,  and  on  those  grounds,  I  ask  this  hearing  to  be  quashed. 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  objection  is  overruled,  and  if  you  will  now  stand,  I 
will  swear  you  in. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  There  are  two  more  grounds  that  I  neglected  to 
mention. 

Mr.  Pool.  Make  them  short. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Article  III,  section  1,  of  the  Constitution,  which 
states : 

The  judicial  power  of  the  United  States  shall  be  vested  in  one  supreme  Court, 
and  in  such  inferior  courts  as  the  Congress  may  from  time  to  time  ordain  and 
establish.  The  Judges,  both  of  the  supreme  and  inferior  Courts,  shall  hold  their 
oflBces  during  good  behavior,  and  shall,  at  stated  times,  receive  for  their  services, 
a  compensation,  which  shall  not  be  diminished  during  their  continuance  in  office. 

I  also  state  that  I  do  not  feel  that  this  hearing  has  a  legislative  pur- 
pose, and  it  is  used  as  a  smokescreen  to  put  fear  in  the  American  people 
and  the  people  of  Buffalo  fighting  for  the  things  that  they  need. 

Mr.  Pool.  Are  you  finished  with  your  objections  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Yes,  I  am. 

Mr.  Pool.  Overruled.     Now  if  you  will  stand,  I  will  swear  you  in. 

Do  you  solenmly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  be- 
fore this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but 
the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  do. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mrs.  Schwartz,  in  listening  to  the  objections  that  you 
made  to  the  committee  prior  to  your  being  sworn  just  now,  I  observe 
that  one  of  the  objections  was  that  you  have  not  been  afforded  an  op- 
portunity to  call  witnesses  on  your  behalf.  You  were  sent  a  letter — 
as  was  every  other  witness  who  was  subpenaed  here — on  approximately 


1616    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

April  10,  1964,  by  tlie  chairman  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities,  in  which  you  were  advised  that  you  would  be  given,  under 
a  rule  of  the  House  of  Representatives,  an  opportunity  to  voluntarily 
appear  before  the  committee  this  morning  at  9  o'clock,  if  you  desired 
to  do  so.  You  were  not  compelled  to  do  so,  and  it  did  not  stand  as  a 
summons  or  subpena,  and  at  that  time  the  committee  would  entertain 
any  request  that  you  might  make  for  the  summoning  by  the  committee 
of  witnesses  to  appear  on  your  behalf.  The  committee  was  here  in 
attendance  at  9  o'clock  this  morning.  It  received  no  reply  then,  or 
earlier  by  mail,  to  the  opportunity  that  was  offered  to  you.  I  make 
that  comment  and  observe,  however,  in  conclusion  that  the  Chair  has 
already  mled  on  the  invalidity  of  your  objections  to  the  proceedings 
affording  you  an  answer,  a  reason  to  refuse  to  answer.  I  will  now  ask 
you  the  first  question. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Excuse  me  for  a  moment. 
(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 
Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  with  the  questioning.  Counsel. 
Mr.  HiTz.  Mrs.  Schwartz,  I  am  going  to  ask  you  the  question. 
Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  would  like  to  comment  on  what  counsel  has  just 
stated.     I  believe  that  this  is  proper ;  that,  as  I  remember,  it  does  not 
alter  the  fact  that  witnesses  here  do  not  have  a  chance  to  cross-examine 
an  informer  and  a  stool  pigeon  who  happened  to  name  some  48  people 
this  morning. 

(At  this  point,  Mr.  Pool  left  the  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  IciiORD  (presiding) .  I  respectfully  request  the  lady,  and  I  know 
she  is  a  lady,  to  respectfully  answer  the  questions  of  counsel.  The 
preceding  witness  did  not  tell  the  committee  anything,  but  at  least  he 
was  very  courteous. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  don't  feel  that  these  Congressmen  deserve  the  kind 
of  courtesy  that  smears  me  and  my  family  and  smears  our  name  across 
the  newspapers. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  next  question,  Mr.  Counsel. 
Mr.  HiTz.  Mrs.  Schwartz,  will  you  please  give  your  full  name? 
Mrs.  Schwartz.  Helen  Schwartz. 
Mr.  HiTz.  Your  address,  please? 
Mrs.  Schwartz.  117  Groveland  Street. 
Mr.  HiTZ.  Are  you  Mrs.  Helen  Schwartz  ? 
Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  just  stated  so. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  bom,  Mrs.  Schwartz  ? 
Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  really  don't  see  what  this  has  to  do  with  Congress 
and  laws  of  the  Congress. 

Mr.  HiTz.  It  is  part  of  the  identification  of  you  and  your  activities. 
That  makes  it  relevant  and,  therefore,  pertinent  and,  therefore,  a  pos- 
sible contempt  citation  if  you  don't  answer  it. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Don't  you  think  that  you  gentlemen,  if  you  really 

wanted  to 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 
Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  was  born  in  Brooklyn  in  1929. 
Mr.  HiTZ.  When  did  you  come  to  Buffalo? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  would  like  to  say  again  that  I  did  not  feel  that 
the  questions  are  pertinent  to  any  laws  and  we  are  wasting  time  and 
taxpayers'  money  of  this  city  and  of  the  country,  I  do  not  feel  that 
the  gentlemen  here  have  to  listen. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1617 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  the  chairman  direct  the  witness  to  answer 
the  question,  and  let's  get  along. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  think  that  everyone  will  agree  that  the  question  is 
relevant.  Will  the  lady  please  answer  the  question?  If  not,  the 
Chair  will  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Will  the  reporter  please  repeat  the  question? 

Mr.  IcnORD.  Madam  Reporter,  will  you  read  back  the  question  to 
Mrs.  Schwartz? 

Let  me  assure  the  lady  that  the  Chair  desires  to  protect  every 
constitutional  right  that  you  have. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  don't  share  that  opinion  with  Mr.  Ichord. 

[Disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Ichord.  Sir,  this  is  a  committee  of  Congress,  a  duly  constituted 
committee  of  Congress,  elected  by  the  people  of  the  United  States 
from  their  various  districts.  We  would  like  for  the  gentleman  to  be 
courteous  enough  to  remain  quiet  and  let  the  committee  transact  its 
business.  I  assure  you  that  I  am  going  to  protect  the  rights  of  every 
witness  before  this  committee,  and  if  the  gentleman  disturbs  the  ac- 
tion of  the  committee,  he  will  be  ejected  if  he  does  it  one  more  time.  Is 
that  clearly  understood,  sir? 

Now  Madam  Reporter,  will  you  read  the  question  to  Mrs.  Schwartz  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  If  the  chairman  please,  I  think  I  can  more  rapidly 
frame  the  question. 

Mr.  Ichord.  So  state.  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  brought  you  to  Buffalo? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  The  good  weather. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  when  was  that  accomplished  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  When  was  what  accomplished  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  was  the  good  weather  coinciding  with  your  arrival 
here  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  do  not  understand  the  question.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Hitz.  "Wliat  was  the  cause  of  your  coming  from  Brooklyn  to 
Buffalo? 

Mre.  Schwartz.  We  had  heard  what  a  wonderful  city  this  was. 

Mr.  Hn^z.  Are  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  Mrs. 
Schwartz  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  would  like  to  decline  to  answer  that  question  on 
several  gromids.  I  feel  that  the  question  is  unconstitutional,  as  the 
gentlemen  of  this  committee  know  and  continue  to  flagrantly  violate 
the  Constitution,  and  I  feel  that  it  is  my  duty  to  uphold  the  Consti- 
tution and,  in  doing  so,  I  would  like  to  claim  the  following  amend- 
ments to  the  Constitution,  if  I  may. 

Mr.  Ichord.  The  lady  is  very  well  informed  on  her  rights.  May 
we  say,  while  the  lady  is  giving  her  various  grounds,  that  I  am  in- 
formed by  the  counsel  that  we  did  make  an  agreement  with  your 
attorney  that  we  would  put  you  on  ahead  of  other  witnesses  as  a  mat- 
ter of  courtesy  to  your  attorney,  so  in  stating  your  grounds,  would 
you  please  make  them  as  brief  as  possible? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  don't  believe  that  happens  to  be  true. 

Mr.  IcHOKD.  I  was  so  advised  by  counsel.  Proceed.  Proceed  with 
your  grounds  for  refusal  to  answer  the  question,  Mrs.  Schwartz. 


1618    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    EST    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  article  I,  which 

says: 

Congress  shall  make  no  law  respecting  an  establishment  of  religion,  or  pro- 
hibiting the  free  exercise  thereof ;  or  abridging  the  freedom  of  speech,  or  of  the 
press;  or  of  the  right  of  the  people  peaceably  to  assemble,  and  to  petition 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  is  it  necessary  for  the  witness  to  go 
into  this  again  ?  Should  she  not  cooperate  to  the  extent,  for  her  own 
convenience  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Convenience  ?    It  isn't  a  question  of  convenience. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Let  me  finish.  In  order  to  complete  this  as  rapidly 
as  possible,  incorporate  the  reasons  that  you  gave  previously  to  fully 
protect  yourself. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  Chair  would  advise  the  lady — and  I  am  sure  that 
she  well  knows  her  rights  already — that  the  Supreme  Court  has  held 
that  amendments  number  1  and  number  15  and  niunber  9  and  the 
other  constitutional  amendments  that  have  been  cited  hj  the  witnesses 
today  have  been  held  by  the  Supreme  Court  not  to  be  valid  grounds  for 
refusal  to  answer.  I  am  sure  that  the  lady  can  go  ahead  and,  in  order 
to  expedite  the  work  of  the  committee,  state  her  grounds  as  briefly  as 
possible  as  a  matter  of  courtesy  to  her  attorney. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  after  the  witness  and  her  counsel  have 
had  an  opportunity  to  confer,  I  have  a  statement  to  make  for  the  chair- 
man with  respect  to  the  imderstanding  that  I  had  with  counsel.  I  will 
make  it  after  this  conference  is  over. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Gollobin,  I  observe  the  conference  with  your  client 
is  over.  I  want  to  remind  you  of  an  agreement  which  I  laiow  that  you 
and  I  had,  to  the  effect  that  if  we  call  at  this  time,  out  of  order,  this 
witness,  Mrs.  Schwartz,  at  your  request,  that  the  witness  would  make 
the  objections  she  saw  fit  to  make,  simply  and  briefly.  It  is  my  opinion 
and  my  recommendation  to  the  chairman  of  the  committee  that  that 
is  not  now  being  done.  I  propose,  unless  this  course  of  action  is 
changed  by  your  witness,  to  recommend  to  the  committee  that  this  wit- 
ness be  excused  until  we  can  reach  other  witnesses  who,  we  have 
reasons  to  believe,  will  be  more  conservative  in  the  consumption  of 
the  time  of  this  body  at  this  particular  session  this  evening.  Now,  I 
am  going  to  ask  another  question. 

Mr.  Gollobin.  I  do  wish  to  make  a  statement  in  connection  with 
your  comment,  because  as  I  understand  it,  in  talking  to  you  a  moment 
ago  before  this  witness  was  called,  when  I  simply  stated  that  she  was 
here  this  evening — though  you  had  agreed  previously  that  she  wouldn't 
have  to  be — and  her  husband,  you  then  stated  that  you  did  not  think 
that  she  would  even  be  called  this  evening ;  and  I  must  say,  she  and 
her  husband  have  remained  here  with  us  and  were  taken  a  bit  by  sur- 
prise, not  that  they  are  unwilling  to  testify  at  this  time ;  they  are  glad 
to.  Now,  I  am  not  in  a  position  to  dictate  to  my  client  that  she  should 
not  conduct  herself  after  I  have  advised  her  of  her  rights.  They 
must  do  what  in  their  judgment  they  see  fit  to  do.  I  am  not  their 
dictator.  I  am  only  their  attorney.  They  have  to  act  as  their  judg- 
ment dictates  after  they  have  gotten  legal  advice,  and  I  cannot  be  put 
in  a  position  of  seeming  to  be  compelled  to  advise  my  client  to  abandon 
a  course,  as  she  chooses,  on  the  price  of  any  other  that  I^  am  violating 
some  understanding  which  I,  in  fact,  dispute  that  I  did  make,  and 


COIVIMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1619 

I  call  your  attention,  when  I  did  go  up  to  you,  you  did  say — and  it's 
practically  in  the  same  words — "Let  nature  take  its  course.  How  can 
you  expect  that  I  would  have  these  witnesses  this  evening  ?" 

Mr.  IcHORD.  With  perhaps  that  exchange,  perhaps  the  lady  will  not 
be  so  dilatory  in  her  answers.    Proceed  with  your  answer. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Thank  you.   Mrs.  Schwartz 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Are  you  repeating  the  question,  Mr.  Counsel  ?  I  don't 
believe  the  lady  answered  the  last  question. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  What  was  the  last  question.  Counsel  ? 

Mr.  IcHORD  (to  reporter).  Read  the  question  back  to  the  lady. 

(The  reporter  read  the  pending  question.) 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  ask  permission  to  ask  another  question. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed.   Let's  start  all  over  again. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  is  your  educational  background  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  really  don't  feel  that  this  has  anything 

Mr.  Ichord.  Mrs.  Schwartz,  that  is  a  very  reasonable  question. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  You  may  feel  it's  reasonable.  I  feel  this  whole 
thing  is  unreasonable. 

Mr.  Ichord.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  was  graduated  from  high  school. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Is  that  your  complete  educational  background  from  that 
time  on  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  No,  I  had  an  incomplete  college  record. 

Mr.  Hitz.  By  that,  do  you  mean  you  did  not  graduate  from  college  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  That  is  correct ;  that  is  what  I  mean. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Where  did  you  go  to  college  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  This  is  very  important  to  the  work  of  the  Congress. 

Mr.  Ichord.  I  direct  the  lady  to  answer  the  question. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  went  to  Brooklyn  College. 

Mr.  Ichord.  Proceed.    I  did  not  understand  the  answer  of  the  lady. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Brooklyn  College,  a  free  college  which  this  city 
could  use. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Are  you  employed  now,  Mrs.  Schwartz  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  am  a  housewife ;  unpaid  labor. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Have  you  ever  been  gainfully  employed,  Mrs.  Schwartz  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  have  worked  at  several  jobs ;  yes. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Would  you  please  name  them  for  us  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  could  name  you  some;  I  cannot  recollect  them  all. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Will  you  name  them  in  reverse  order,  that  is,  name  first 
the  last  one  that  you  had  and  go  backwards  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  don't  know  if  I  can  accomplish  that.  I  will 
attempt  to  give  you  some  of  my  jobs.  I  don't  keep  very  careful  records 
of  this,  which  you  gentlemen  seem  to  do.  I  think  the  last  job  that  I 
had  was  working  with  W.A.  Case  in  this  city  on  Elm  Street. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Wliat  do  they  do  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  They  were  a  plumbing  concern ;  plumbing  supplies. 

Mr.  Hitz.  And  the  next  before  that  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  really  can't  recall. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Are  you  acquainted  with  Andrew  Berecz,  who  was  the 
witness  this  morning  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  decline  to  answer  that  on  all  the  grounds  pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Does  that  include  the  fifth  amendment  ? 


1620    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  It  includes  all  of  the  articles  previously  stated,  in- 
cluding the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  this  is  not  responsive.  I  asked  the  ques- 
tion. Does  it  include  the  fifth  amendment  ?  The  answer  to  that  does 
not  include  what  she  has  already  stated. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  If  comisel  and  Mr.  Ichord  would  let  me  finish,  I 
will  finish  the  statement  instead  of  being  interrupted  in  the  middle  of 
a  sentence. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  question  was.  Did  that  include  the  fifth  amend- 
ment ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Yes,  and  I  would  have  answered  that,  sir,  please. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  And  the  Chair  will  accept  that  as  a  valid  reason. 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Please  do  not  put  words  in  my  mouth. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel,  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  present  when  Mr.  Berecz  testified  this  morning? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Yes,  I  was. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  ever  attended  Communist  Party  meetings  at 
which  Mr.  Berecz  was  present  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  decline  to  answer  that  questioi\  on  the  same 
grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Are  you  acquainted  with  Joseph  Pranis  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Would  this  committee  have  me  an  informer?  I 
decline  to  be  an  informer.  I  would  refuse  to  name  any  names.  I 
have  a  conscience,  unlike  some  other  people. 

Mr.  Hitz.  On  what  grounds  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  all  of  the 
grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Ichord.  Proceed  with  your  question.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Hitz.  The  committee  has  received  testimony  that  on  January 
15,  1960,  you  were  at  a  closed  Communist  Party  meeting  at  the  home 
of  Joseph  Pranis ;  do  you  affirm  or  deny  that  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  think  that  this  committee  is  a  mockery.  It  serves 
no  legislative  purpose. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  answer  of  the  lady  is  not  responsive.  Will  you 
please  reply  to  the  question  of  counsel,  Mrs.  Schwartz  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  neither  affirm  or  deny  that  question. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Is  it  a  fact? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  all  the  grounds 
previously  stated. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Mrs.  Schwartz,  are  you  a  member  of  an  organization 
sometimes  known  as  Progressive  Labor,  Progressive  Labor  party,  or 
Progressive  Labor  Movement  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  Why  don't  all  the  good  gentlemen  here— — ■ 

Mr.  Ichord.  Mrs.  Schwartz,  the  question  is 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  heard  the  question. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Are  you  a  member  of  the  Progressive  Labor  Move- 
ment ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  am  answering  the  question,  sir,  in  my  way. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Hitz.  And  the  answer  is  what  ? 

Mrs.  Schwartz.  I  decline  to  answer  that  ciucsdoii  on  the  grounds 
previously  stated. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1621 

Mr.  IciiORD.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  HiTz.  That  is  all  the  questions  I  have,  Mr.  Chairman. 
Mr.  IcHORD.  The  witness  will  be  excused  if  there  are  no  questions 
by  members  of  the  committee.    The  witness  is  excused. 
Are  you  ready  to  call  your  next  witness,  Mr.  Counsel  ? 
Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Walter  Zvaleko. 
Mr.  IciioRD.  Raise  your  hand  and  be  sworn,  sir. 

TESTIMONY  OF  WALTEE  J.  ZVALEKO,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 

IRA  GOLLOBIN 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  Before  I  take  my  oath,  I  would  like  to  challenge  the 
right  of  this  committee.  The  members  of  this  committee  were  elected 
to  Congress,  and  they  took  an  oath  to  uphold  the  Constitution  and  they 
violated  every  step  of  the  way.  They  violated  the  first  amendment  by 
where  the  people  have  the  right  to  associate  with  whom  they  wish. 

Mr.  IciiORD.  Just  a  minute.    How  long  will  this  statement  take? 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  It  won't  take  long. 

Mr.  IciiORD.  Before  we  get  into  your  statement,  I  notice — are  you  a 
folk  singer  ? 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  Yes.   Would  you  like  to  hear  me  sing  ? 

Mr.  IciiORD.  What  do  you  play,  a  guitar  ? 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  That  is  right.     Later  on  I  will  play  for  you. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  would  like  to  hear  you,  but  not  now,  not  while  we  are 
conducting  business  of  your  Government  and  my  Government,  and 
now  will  the  gentleman  proceed  to  state  his  grounds.  After  10  o'clock, 
I  would  be  glad  to  hear  the  gentleman.  Proceed,  sir,  and  state  your 
objections.  The  Chair  is  going  to  protect  every  constitutional  right 
you  have,  and  I  might  say  that  I  hope  you  have  the  courage  of  your 
convictions  to  tell  us  all  that  you  think.     Proceed. 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  As  I  started  to  say,  I  don't  think  this  committee  has 
the  right  to  ask  anybody  to  take  an  oath.  I  think  that  the  members  of 
this  committee  have  violated  their  oath  when  they  were  elected  to  Con- 
gress. They  took  an  oath  to  uphold  the  Constitution.  They  have  not 
upheld  that  oath  to  the  Constitution,  and  it  is  up  to  the  American 
people  to  do  something  about  it. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  think  that  is  a  matter  of  opinion. 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  It  is  a  matter  of  opinion,  but  there  are  opinions  that 
are  expressed  all  over  the  place,  and  I  think  we  have  the  right  to 
opinions  too. 

Mr.  IIiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  plead  for  the  permission  to  interrupt 
this  witness,  and  I  desire  to  make  a  statement  to  this  witness  and  to 
the  chairman  and  to  the  committee,  that  it  is  unquestionably  the  law 
that  has  been  established  in  the  Federal  courts,  that  a  w^itness  is  en- 
titled to  make  legal  objections  and  that  they  must  be  made  in  a  brief 
and  temperate  way.  That  may  be  done  under  some  of  the  decisions 
even  before  they  are  sworn.  It  has  been  my  recommendation  to  this 
committee  that  if  that  right  be  permitted  to  this  witness  and  others 
that  this  witness  has  already  violated  the  requirement  that  the  cases 
impose  on  us  in  that  regard,  because  I  do  not  believe  that  the  statement 
that  he  has  already  launched  into  is  either  brief  or  temperate.  I  say 
again  to  the  conmiittee  that  there  are  successful  prosecutions  of  con- 
tempt in  several  cases  for  people  who  have  overstepped  the  confines  of 


1622    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

the  rights  that  may  be  asserted  by  reason  of  the  statement  of  a  brief 
legal  objection.  If  this  witness  persists  in  this,  I  would  like  the  op- 
portunity to  interrupt  and  to  suggest  to  the  committee  that  he  be  con- 
sidered for  possible  contempt  proceedings  by  way  of  interruption  of 
anything  further. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  Chair  has  very  definitely  been  indulgent  with  the 
witness.  Let  me  assure  the  witness  again  that  the  Chair  desires  to 
protect  every  constitutional  right  that  you  have,  and  the  Chair  will 
zealously  do  that,  and  I  ask  the  gentleman  to  cooperate  and  give  objec- 
tions, valid  objections.    Proceed. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  will  get  on  with  the  legal  questions.  I  challenge 
this  committee  on  the  basis  of  the  first  amendment,  which  reads : 

Congress  shall  make  no  law  respecting  an  establishment  of  religion,  or  pro- 
hibiting the  free  exercise  thereof ;  or  abridging  the  freedom  of  speech,  or  of  the 
press ;  or  the  right  of  the  people  peaceably  to  assemble,  and  to  petition  the  Gov- 
ernment for  a  redress  of  grievances. 

I  say  that  this  committee  violates  that  amendment  to  the  Constitu- 
tion. 

I  say  that  this  committee  violates  the  sixth  amendment  to  the  Con- 
stitution, and  it  reads  as  follows : 

In  all  criminal  prosecutions,  the  accused  shall  enjoy  the  right  to  a  speedy  and 
public  trial,  by  an  impartial  jury  of  the  State  and  district  wherein  the  crime  shall 
have  been  committed,  which  district  shall  have  been  previously  ascertained  by 
law,  and  to  be  informed  of  the  nature  and  cause  of  the  accusation ;  to  be  con- 
fronted with  the  witnesses  against  him ;  to  have  compulsory  process  for  obtaining 
witnesses  in  favor,  and  to  have  the  assistance  of  counsel  for  his  defense. 

And  I  know  what  counsel  is  going  to  read  me,  and  I  heard  him  read  it 
to  the  other  witnesses,  but  he  has  not  given  anybody  the  right  to  cross- 
examination.     So  we  can't  pick  and  choose  on  these  things. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Zvaleko,  please  bear  with  me  while  I  make  a  comment 
to  you  and  to  the  Chair.  I  don't  believe,  as  counsel  for  this  committee, 
that  you  as  a  witness  have  a  right  to  continue  to  read  the  statements  in 
the  Constitution  and  elsewhere,  that  you  feel  bolster  the  legal  position 
that  you  desire  to  take  prior  to  being  sworn.  It  is  my  view  and  advice 
to  the  committee  that  if  you  care  to  resort  to  the  first  amendment,  you 
may  do  so,  and  that  if  you  care  to  read  it,  you  may  do  so,  within  reason. 
I  think  we  have  gone  beyond  that,  and  I  would  like  to  suggest  to  the 
committee  that  he  be  cautioned  that  if  he  resorts  to  other  constitu- 
tional amendments  or  doctrines  of  law  that  he  feels  may  be  a  reason 
why  he  need  not  answer  or  even  be  sworn,  that  he  state  what  they  are, 
but  he  need  not  read  them  to  this  committee, 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  Chair  wall  rule. 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  I  object  to  that. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  Chair  will  rule,  and  I  think  we  have  carried  the 
gentleman's  statement  far  enough.  In  view  of  the  Supreme  Court 
cases,  case  after  case,  holding  that  the  grounds  stated  by  the  gentleman 
are  not  valid  objections  to  the  jurisdiction  of  the  committee,  I  will  have 
to  overrule  the  objections  of  the  witness;  and  in  view  of  the  fact  that 
this  is  not  a  jury  trial,  this  is  a  fact-finding  investigation  committee 
of  the  United  States  Congress,  and  in  view  of  those  findings,  Mr. 
Zvaleko 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  "Zvaleko"  is  how  it's  pronounced. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1623 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  shall  ask  that  you  rise  and  be  sworn.  You  will  be 
able  to  invoke  your  constitutional  rights.  I  direct,  sir,  that  you  be 
sworn. 

Mr.  ZvALEKo.  I  would  like  to  finish  my  legal  objections. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  Chair  has  overruled  your  objection.    Proceed. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  think  you  are  violating  a  very  basic  right  that  every 
American  shall  have. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  gentleman  will  be  able  to  state  that  many  times. 

Mr,  ZvALEKo.  I  would  like  a  ruling  as  to  the  relevancy  of  this  hear- 
mg  and  in  relation  to  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  gentleman  will  be  given  a  right  to  state  all  of  the 
constitutional  objections  at  the  proper  time.     Stand  and  be  sworn. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  be- 
fore this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but 
the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKo.  I  do. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Would  you  please  give  your  full  name  ? 

Mr,  ZvALEKo.  I  would  like  to  object  at  this  time  to  some  of  the  things 
that  took  place  during  the  course  of  the  day  at  this  so-called  public 
hearing.  The  fact  that  this  was  a  request  made  for  a  larger  room  to  be 
used,  and  this  request  was  denied  even  though  all  of  the  people  who 
were  subpenaed  obviously  were  in  favor  of  it. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Is  there  a  pending  question  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  There  is.    I  asked  him  for  his  full  name. 

Mr,  IcHORD,  I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question, 

Mr,  ZvALEKO,  I  W' as  told  that  after  I  was  sworn  in 

Mr,  IcHORD.  I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr,  ZvALEKo,  Walter  Zvaleko. 

Mr,  HiTz,  Will  you  spell  it? 

Mr,  Zvaleko,  Z-v-a-1-e-k-o, 

Mr,  HiTz,  "What  is  your  addi"ess,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  I  really  fail  to  see  the  relevancy  of  this  proposed 
legislation, 

Mr.  IcHORD.  There  is  no  question  about  the  relevancy  of  the  question 
posed  by  counsel,     I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr,  Zvaleko,  Do  you  want  to  open  my  family 

Mr,  IcHORD,  I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr,  Zvaleko.  132  Glenwood, 

Mr,  HiTz.  Wlien  and  where  were  you  born,  sir  ? 

Mr,  Zvaleko.  Now,  what  has  that  possibly  to  do  with  anything  that 
is  taking  place  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  won't  think  it  needs  any  comment.  I  request  the  Chair 
to  order  the  answer. 

JMr,  Zvaleko,  I  received  a  subpena.  I  came  here  on  behalf  of  that 
subpena, 

Mr.  IciiORD.  Proceed  with  your  next  question,  Mr.  Counsel, 

Mr,  HiTZ,  May  we  have  an  answer,  Mr,  Chairman,  to  the  pending 
question,  when  and  where  was  he  born?  I  think  perhaps  I  did  not 
make  it  clear.    The  question  is :  When  and  where  ? 

Mr.  IciiORD.  I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr,  Zvaleko,  I  think  that  it  has  been  stated  that  these  questions 
are  purposes,  or  are  for  purposes  of  identification.    Now  it  seems  to 

36-414—64 8 


1624    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

me  that  I  am  here  on  siibpena.  You  know  who  I  am.  I  have  come  at 
your  request  by  the  subpena.  I  didn't  ask  to  come  here  and  I  have 
told  you  my  name  and  my  address.  This  is  certainly  identification 
enough.    I  am  sure  that  you  will  have  it  in  your  records  anyway. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  May  I  advise  the  witness  that  this  in  accordance  with 
the  procedure  of  the  committee.     The  question  is  relevant. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  was  born  in  Greenpoint  Hospital. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Under  the  penalties  of  the  Constitution,  the  Chair, 
and  I  don't  like  to  do  this,  I  will  have  to  direct  you  to  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  was  born  in  Greenpoint  Hospital,  1931. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wliat  is  your  educational  background  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  graduated  high  school. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  go  further  than  high  school? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  did  not. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliat  is  your  employment  background? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  What  has  that  to  do  with  anything?  I  would  like 
to  know  when  this  committee  of  Congress  is  going  to  deal  with  the 
problems  that  face  the  people. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  question  is  very  simple. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  Are  the  people  interested  in  where  I  work  ? 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  question  is.  What  is  your  employment  background  ? 
I  direct  the  answer  to  that  question, 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  have  been  a  worker  all  my  life.  I  was  born  into  a 
working  family. 

Mr.  IcpiORD.  And  so  was  I. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  And  I  am  proud  of  this,  as  I  am  sure  you  are,  and 
I  have  had  many  jobs  in  my  life  and  I  have  worked  hard  and  earned 
little  while  I  have  made  a  few  bosses  rich,  and  I  am  a  little  tired  of  it, 
frankly;  so  if  you  got  any  proposals,  I  will  be  happy  to  accept 
them. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  ask  the  Chair  to  demand  the  answer. 

Mr.  IciioRD.  I  am  sure  the  witness  realizes  that  the  answ^er  was  not 
responsive  to  the  question. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  told  you,  I  have  worked  many  different  jobs  and 
places. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  What  specific  jobs  has  the  witness  worked  at? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  AVliy  is  this  necessaiy?  I  would  really  like  you  to 
explain  why  this  is  necessary. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  Which  one? 

Mr.  IcHORD.  What  specifically  has  the  witness  worked  at  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  have  worked  as  a  laborer.  I  have  worked  as  an 
arc  welder.  I  have  worked  as  a  truck  driver.  I  have  worked  as  a 
pipefitter.     I  have  done  many  jobs. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  was  your  last  employment? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  w^as  your  last  employment? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  Are  you  presuming  that  I  am  going  to  be  fired  ? 

(At  this  point,  Mr.  Pool  returned  to  the  hearing  room.) 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  the  witness  start  answering  the  questions 
instead  of  wisecracking  to  the  counsel,  and  I  ask  the  chairman  to 
direct  him  to  answer  the  question. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1625 

Mr.  Pool  (presiding).  I  so  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wliat  was  your  last  employment? 

Mr,  ZvALEKO.  This  is  strange ;  how  can  I  answer  that?  I  am  work- 
ing on  a  job.     The  one  before  this  one,  you  mean? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  ask  the  chairman  to  demand  the  answer. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  will  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  don't  understand  the  question.  If  you  can  make  me 
understand  it,  I  will  answer  it.  I  don't  know  what  you  are  looking 
for. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  the  answer  is  clear.  I  think  we 
can  stand  on  a  contempt  proceeding. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  have  not  refused  to  answer  this  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  making  a  request  to  the  Chair  that  will  lead  further 
in  this  proceeding  and  that  we  stand  on  the  record  that  we  have  on 
this  question.  I  ask  that  the  Chair  give  final  demand  for  answer  to 
that  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  This  is  the  final  time. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  Lippes  Bakery. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  spell  the  name  of  the  bakery  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKo.  L-i-p-p-e-s. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  long  have  you  worked  for  Lippes  Bakery  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  Oh,  about  8  months. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  are  you  employed  now,  sir  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  Is  that  question  designed  to  guarantee  that  I  shall 
lose  my  employment  and  that  my  family  shall  have  to  fall  back  on 
other  resources,  welfare  or  something  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  ask  the  Chair  to  demand  the  answer. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  ask  the  Chair  to  rule  that  this  question  is  irrelevant 
to  these  proceedings. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  worked  for  the  National  Biscuit  Company. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Were  you  here  this  morning  when  Andrew  Berecz  testi- 
fied? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  Yes,  I  was  here  when  the  "fink"  talked. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  hear  his  testimony  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  fell  asleep  through  part  of  it. 

Mr.  Pool.  Did  you  answer  the  question  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKo.  Yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  He  testified  that  you  were  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party  with  him ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKo.  I  am  not  going  to  be  an  informer  even  on  a  rat  like 
that.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment  and 
I  won't  read  them  to  the  pleasure  of  the  committee.  I  am  sure  they 
don't  like  to  hear  these  amendments.  On  the  gromids  of  the  6th 
amendment  and  the  ground  of  the  9th  and  on  the  grounds  of  the  10th 
and  14th  and,  last  of  all,  on  the  grounds  of  this  amendment  which  was 
put  in  the  Constitution  to  protect  the  innocent,  which  this  committee 
has  tried  to  make  appear  that  people  who  are  guilty  use  the  very 
amendment  that  is  the  very  foundation  of  this  Constitution,  the  5th 
amendment. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 


1626    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  Oh,  to  save  time  and  trouble,  I  will  decline  on  a  previ- 
ous grounds. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party « 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  The  Communist  movement  in  this  country  came  out 
of  the  thirties  when  people  were  out  of  work  and  looking  for  answers 
to  problems,  when  the  Negro  people  were  being  subjugated 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Counsel  didn't  ask  for  any  discourse.  The  counsel 
asked  the  witness  a  question,  and  I  ask  the  Chair  to  direct  him  to 
answer. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  attend  a  meeting  of  the  Communist  Party  or  a 
group  of  the  party  in  this  Buffalo  area  in  October  of  1961,  at  which 
there  was  present  Louis  Weinstock  and  Benjamin  Davis  from  New 
York  City,  which  resulted  in  a  discussion  relative  to  your  dismissal 
from  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  Will  you  repeat  the  question,  please.     I'm  sorry. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  present  at  a  meeting  of  a  group  of  Communist 
Party  members  in  the  Buffalo  area  on  or  about  the  month  of  October 
1961,  at  which  were  present  Louis  Weinstock  and  Davis,  Benjamin 
Davis,  during  which  meeting  there  was  a  discussion  respecting  the  dis- 
missal of  you  and  others  from  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  would  like  to  know  when  this  committee  is  going  to 
investigate  some  of  the  Fascist  movements  in  this  country  that  are 
planning  to  overthrow  this  Government.  Why  is  all  of  the  attention 
made  to  the  left  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  decline  to  answer  the  question  on  the  grounds  pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  IIiTZ.  Were  you  and  Mr.  Scheer,  Mr.  Wolkenstein,  previously 
identified  for  this  record  today,  expelled  from  the  Communist  Party 
of  the  Erie  County  branch  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKo.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated, 
all  the  grounds. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  a" member  of  the  Progressive  Labor  group,  party, 
or  organization  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  The  Progressive  Labor  Movement  is  a  new  Socialist 
movement  that  is  looking  to  solve  the  problems  of  the  American  people, 
trying  to  free  the  Negro  people  from  the  bondage  that  they  face  in  the 
South. 

Mr.  Pool.  Answer  the  question.    I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  ZvALEKo.  I  decline  to  answer  because  I  don't  recognize  this 
committee  although,  if  the  American  people  want  to  know  what  I 
think,  I  will  tell  them  and  I  will  tell  the  reporters,  but  as  far  as  this 
committee  is  concerned,  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  know  Milton  Rosen  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKo.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    EST    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1627 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  applied  for  reinstatement  in  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  This  is  a  very  nice  question,  isn't  it,  a  very  loaded 
question.    Wliat  a  sweet  question  that  is. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  ever  been  present  at  a  meeting  of  the  Commu- 
nist Party  with  members  in  this  area  at  which  also  w^as  present  Paul 
Sporn  ? 

Mr.  ZvALEKO.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Zvaleko,  I  am  about  to  put  a  question  to  you. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  HiTz.  Am  I  to  understand,  from  the  answer  you  put  to  a  previ- 
ous question,  that  you  claim  to  be  well  aware  of  the  aims  of  the  Pro- 
gressive Labor  Movement  or  organization  ? 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  I  think  that  the  American  people  owe  it  to  them- 
selves to  find  out  about  every  single  movement  in  this  country. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  I  decline  to  tell  the  committee  anything  I  know.  I 
decline  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  No  further  questions. 

Mr.  Zvaleko.  I  would  like  to  play  my  guitar  now,  if  it's  all  right. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  is  excused.   Call  the  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Schwartz. 

TESTIMONY  OF  TOBIAS  L.  SCHWAETZ,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 

IRA  GOLLOBIN 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Before  I  say  one  word,  I  want  to  know  if  this  table 
has  been  bugged  ?  It  was  charged  by  counsel  in  1957  that  bugs  were 
planted  in  this  table,  and  I  want  to  be  sure  that  that  is  not  true  now 
because  I  will  not  have  my  right  of  counsel  violated.  Now,  I  want 
this  table  examined  right  this  instant.  In  addition  to  this,  I  want  to 
make  another  statement,  and  that  statement  is  that  I  consider  this 
committee  entirely  illegal,  entirely  unconstitutional.  It  violates  the 
1st  amendment,  the  4th  amendment,  the  5th  amendment,  the  10th 
amendment,  and  the  9th  amendment.  I  do  not  recognize  your  author- 
ity. You  men,  many  of  you  are  elected  illegally.  You  have  no  right 
here.  I  stand  on  the  theory  of  Albert  Einstein,  and  that  spirit  is  pre- 
cisely what  he  stated,  that  we  should  decline  to  answer  this  cormnittee. 

Mr.  Pool.  If  we  have  another  demonstration  like  that,  I  am  sure 
there  will  be  a  contempt  of  Congress  recommendation. 

(Witness  shouted.  Chairman  gaveled  for  order.  It  was  impossible 
to  record  what  further  was  said  by  the  witness  or  the  subcommittee 
chairman  until  the  following :) 

Mr.  Pool.  Call  your  next  witness. 

Marshal,  remove  the  witness. 

[Witness  Schwartz  was  removed  from  the  hearing  room.] 

Mr.  Pool.  For  the  benefit  of  any  other  witness  who  cares  to  come 
and  make  an  outburst,  statements  that  he  made  just  then  will  go  in 

36-414—64 9 


1628    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

the  record  for  possible  contempt  hearing  and  action  by  Congress.  If 
you  have  another  witness  now,  Counsel,  call  him. 

Mr.  HiTz.  It  appears  that  we  may  not  have. 

Mr.  Chairman? 

Mr.  Pool.  Yes,  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  would  like  to  state  to  the  chairman  and  to  the  committee 
that  it  is  the  information  of  the  staff  of  the  committee  that  the  last 
witness,  Tobias  Schwartz,  is  connected  in  a  research  capacity  at  Ros- 
well  Park  Memorial  Institute  of  Buffalo  and  that  that  organization, 
which  pays  him  some  of  his  educational  requirements  and  possibly 
other  payments  as  well,  is  reimbursed  for  some  or  all  of  those  pay- 
ments made  to  him  from  the  National  Institutes  of  Health,  a  Federal 
Government  agency  in  Bethesda,  Maryland. 

Mr.  Pool.  Let  the  record  so  show  those  facts.  Do  you  have  any 
further  witnesses  tonight? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman 

[Disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Pool.  Is  the  marshal  here  ? 

[Disorder  in  the  audience.] 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Hitz. 

Mr.  Hitz.  A  number  of  attorneys  here  representing  witnesses  pre- 
vailed upon  me,  because  of  the  exigency  of  their  clients  at  home  and 
elsewhere,  to  postpone  their  waiting  and  their  appearance  as  witnesses 
until  9 :15  tomorrow  or  as  soon  thereafter  as  the  committee  would  meet 
tomorow.  I  am  afraid  I  went  too  far  in  my  indulgence  in  the  con- 
venience of  the  witnesses  and  the  attorneys,  and  we  have  no  further 
witnesses  that  we  can  call  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Counsel,  do  you  have  any  witnesses  that  you  can  call 
at  8 :30  in  the  morning  ? 

Mr.  Hitz.  I  can't  say  for  sure.  It  will  be  dependent  upon  whether 
or  not  I  can  locate  the  attorneys  and  change  the  time,  which  they 
agreed  upon,  from  9 :15  until  8 :30.    The  chances  would  be  quite  remote. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  that  we  recess  until  9 
o'clock  tomorrow  morning. 

Mr.  Hitz.  It  may  be  that  some  of  the  witnesses  will  be  anxious  to 
appear  and  will  arrive  early. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  have  no  objection  to  this  committee  reconvening  at 
9  o'clock  tomorrow  morning. 

("VVliereupon,  at  0  :05  p.m.  Wednesday,  April  29,  1964,  the  su1)Com- 
mittee  recessed  to  reconvene  at  9  a.m.,  Thursday,  April  30,  1964.) 


I 


C03IMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  BUFFALO,  N.Y.,  AREA 


THURSDAY,   APRIL  30,    1964 

United  States  House  of  Representatives, 

Subcommittee  of  the 
Committee  on  Un-American  Activities, 

Buffalo.N.Y. 
public  hearings 

The  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities 
met,  pursuant  to  recess,  at  10:20  a.m.  in  Room  704  of  the  U.S. 
Courthouse  Buikliui^,  Buffalo,  N.Y.,  Hon.  Joe  R.  Pool  (chairman 
of  the  subcommittee)  presiding-. 

(Subcommittee  members:  Representatives  Edwin  E.  Willis,  of 
Louisiana;  Joe  R.  Pool,  of  Texas;  Richard  H.  Ichord,  of  Missouri; 
August  E.  Johansen,  of  Michigan;  and  John  M.  A^hbrook,  of  Ohio.) 

Subcommittee  members  present:  Representatives  Pool,  Ichord,  Jo- 
hansen, and  Ashbrook. 

Staff  members  present:  Francis  J.  McNamara,  director;  William 
Hitz  and  Alfred  M.  Nittle,  counsel ;  and  Louis  J.  Russell  and  Philip  R. 
Manuel,  investigators. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  subcommittee  will  come  to  order. 

I  first  w^ant  to  say  that  we  will  not  tolerate  any  disturbances  in  this 
hearing  room  while  this  hearing  is  going  on.  I  have  directed  the 
marshal  to  eject  anyone  who  does  so. 

I  w^ant  to  make  this  statement :  Yesterday,  Witness  Berecz  identi- 
fied as  a  person  known  to  him  as  a  Communist  Party  member  a  ma,n 
named  Russell  De  Pasquale,  previously  employed  at  the  Bethlehem 
Steel  Co._  ; 

There  is  now  a  Russell  DiPasquale,  age  29,  resident  at  153  Woodside, 
Buffalo,  employed  at  the  Bethlehem  Steel  Co.  The  committee 
wishes  to  make  it  clear  that  this  man  is  not  the  person  identified  by 
INIr.  Berecz  yesterday. 

Counsel,  call  the  next  witness. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  call  Gertrude  Alexander, 
please. 

Mrs.  Alexander,  would  you  be  seated  so  that  I  may  make  an  an- 
nouncement prior  to  your  objecting. 

The  chairman  has  asked  me  to  state  that  the  reason  for  our  coming 
into  the  courtroom  to  resume  this  hearing  this  morning  at  this  hour 
is  that  the  committee  has  been  conducting  other  business,  some  of  it 
in  executive  session,  and  we  have  been  on  committee  business  this 
morning  and  regret  the  delay. 

1629 


1630    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

TESTIMONY  OF  GERTEUDE  ALEXANDER,  ACCOMPANIED  BY 
COUNSEL,  STANLEY  FAULKNER 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mrs.  Alexander,  will  you  give  your  full  name? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  My  name  is  Gertrude  Alexander,  and  I  would  like 
to  make  a  statement. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  would  like  to  caution  you,  Mrs.  Alexander,  that  the 
procedures  of  this  committee  permit  a  witness  summoned  or  other- 
wise appearing  to  make  a  brief  and  relevant  objection  to  the  pro- 
ceedings or  to  the  jurisdiction  of  the  committee  prior  to  being  sw^orn. 
One  necessary  condition  of  such  a  right  of  objection  is  that  objections 
should  not  only  be  brief,  but  that  they  be  temperately  given.  I  am 
not  suggesting  anything  with  reference  to  what  you  may  say,  but  it 
is  clear  that  that  must  be  stated  to  you  and  to  all  the  other  witnesses 
at  this  hearing.  With  that  in  mind,  you  make  the  statement ;  and  if 
there  is  a  violation  of  this  rule,  it  is  going  to  be  considered  as  a  possible 
contempt  of  this  committee. 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  want  to  make  a  statement  questioning  the  legal 
practices  of  this  committee  and  the  result,  my  rights  before  this  com- 
mittee are  ignored.  The  guarantees  as  provided  by  the  hard-fought- 
for  first  amendment  to  freedom  of  speech,  assembly,  the  right  of  peti- 
tioning of  the  Government  for  redress  of  grievances,  this  is  ignored. 

Further,  I  am  tried  publicly  without  trial  by  ignoring  rights  as  pro- 
vided by  the  fourth  amendment  to  a  speedy  and  public  trial  by  an 
impartial  jury  and  witnesses  in  my  favor  and  to  have  compulsory 
process  for  obtaining  witnesses  in  my  favor,  and  the  fourth  amendment 
is  not  permitted  because  not  one  statement  has  been  made,  despite 
constant  questioning  of  this,  that  my  counsel  and  I  have  privacy  to 
consult  with  each  other,  nor  that  my  counsel  may  cross-examine  the 
witnesses  against  me,  nor  that  I  may  do  so. 

This  committee  sits  in  judgment  of  me  illegally,  because  the  14th 
and  15th  amendments  are  ignored  in  the  election  of  some  of  its  mem- 
bers who  do  not  even  represent  the  people  in  their  congressional  dis- 
tricts. They  are  elected  by  a  minority  of  white  voters,  a  few  Negro 
voters,  and  do  not  represent  the  majority  in  their  districts. 

Again,  I  do  not  think  this  is  a  legal  hearing  because  of  all  these 
violations,  and  others,  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  and  to  demand  that  I 
answer  "yes"  or  "no"  to  questions  put  to  me  and  sworn  to  by  a  witness 
I  cannot  question  and,  also,  because  it  serves  no  legislative  purpose. 
Because  of  the  fact  that  this  committee  ignores  the  Bill  of  Rights, 
many  American  people  are  not  informed  as  to  its  illegal  character. 

Mr.  Hjtz.  I  am  sorry,  you  will  have  to  let  me  interrupt.  You  are 
getting  in  the  area  in  which  we  are  going  to  have  to  consider  a  possible 
change  in  the  course  of  procedure  here.  Your  rights  are  that  you 
make  a  statement  of  legal  objection,  but  to  urge  them  or  argue  them 
and  embellish  them  is  not  part  of  our  procedure,  and  will  not  be  per- 
mitted. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  have  a  few  sentences  which  I  would  like  to 
finish  on. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  suggest  that  they  be  conforming  with  our  rules. 

^  Mrs.  Alexander.  Because  of  all  the  things  I  have  stated  before,  the 
violations  of  the  1st  and  4th  and  14th  and  16th  amendments,  because  of 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITU'JS    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1631 

this  fact,  the  committee  ignores  the  Bill  of  Rights  and  many  American 
people  are  not  informed  as  to  its  illegal  character,  and  it's  deserving  of 
dissent  and  free  expression  and  any  challenging  policies  which  are  not 
good  then  for  the  people  of  this  country,  except  for  a  small  number  of 
the  people  who  carry  out  these  policies  for  themselves  and  which  this 
committee  represents. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mrs.  Alexander 

Mr.  Pool.  Is  that  all  the  statement  you  have  to  make  now  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  Yes,  it  is. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  make  a  comment  on  the  statement 
that  has  just  been  made  by  the  witness  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Go  right  ahead. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  You  stated  you  have  not  had  the  opportunity  to  call  wit- 
nesses on  your  behalf,  in  the  light  of  the  accusations  that  you  consider 
have  been  made  against  you.  I  would  like  to  state  to  you  that  this 
committee,  over  the  signature  of  its  chairman  on  April  10,  1964,  ad- 
dressed to  you  a  letter  which  stated  in  substance  that  there  had  been 
some  testimony  taken  that  might  possibly  be  considered  to  be  de- 
famatory and  incriminatory 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  HiTz.  — of  a  person  who  bears  the  name,  the  same  as  yours, 
which  might  well  be  you.  With  that  in  mind,  the  committee  addressed 
a  letter  stating,  in  compliance  to  a  House  rule,  that  you  will  be  per- 
mitted to  make  a  statement  voluntarily,  if  you  wish  to,  prior  to  the 
public  testimony  of  the  witness  who  did  testify  yesterday  concerning 
a  person  bearing  your  same  name  and  that,  at  the  same  time  that  you 
would  be  afforded  the  opportunity  voluntarily  to  appear,  you  could 
request  the  committee  to  summon  on  your  behalf,  witnesses.  You  have 
not  availed  yourself  of  those  two  opportunities.  Mr.  Chairman,  that 
is  the  extent  of  my  comment,  and  I  suggest  now  that  she  be  told  to  rise 
and  be  sworn. 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  objections,  the  witness'  objections  to  appearing,  are 
overruled,  and  if  the  witness  will  stand  and  be  sworn 

Mrs.  Alexander.  Before  I  am  sworn  in,  I  would  like  to  comment  on 
this.    I  would  like  to  know  who  signed  the  letter  that  was  sent  to  me. 

Mr.  HiTz.  It  was  under  the  signature  of  Edwin  E.  Willis,  chair- 
man of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities.  Are  you  suggest- 
ing that  you  did  not  receive  the  letter  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  am  not  suggesting  I  did  not  receive  the  letter, 
but  I  just  went  into  all  the  reasons  why  I  think  this  committee  is 
illegally  constituted,  and  the  chairman  who  signed  the  letters  and  the 
chairman  is  one  of  the  members  I  was  discussing.  I  saw  no  reason  to 
come  before  him. 

Mr.  Pool.  Let's  rise  and  be  sworn  now.  Your  objections  are  over- 
ruled. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  g[ive 
before  this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing 
but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  do. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed. 

INIr.  HiTZ.  Your  full  name,  please  ? 

Mr.  Fauf-kner.  Counsel,  the  witness  asked  me  that  she  not  be  photo- 
graphed any  fiirtlier. 


1632    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Pool.  The  newsmen  and  television  people  will  please  not  tele- 
vise the  witness,  on  her  request ;  that  is  an  order  from  the  Chair. 

Mr,  HiTZ.  Mr.  Chairman,  is  your  ruling  of  yesterday  in  effect,  that 
there  shall  be  no  live  or  television  recordings  of  this  proceeding  i 

Mr.  Pool.  That  is  correct;  at  the  outset  of  this  session,  I  told  the 
audience  that,  under  the  House  rules,  there  will  be  no  television  or  radio 
of  any  of  the  proceedings  after  the  proceedings  start. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mrs.  Alexander,  now,  would  you  answer  my  question  as 
to  your  full  name  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  Gertrude  Alexander,  A-l-e-x-a-n-d-e-r,  Mrs. 

Mr.  HiTZ,  What  is  your  maiden  name  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  see  no  purpose  in  giving  you  my  maiden  name. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  asked  you  for  identification  and  other  purposes. 

Mrs.  Alexander.  Is  this  to  identify  my  family  and  relate  them  to 
this  hearing?  I  do  not  want  to  answer  that  question.  I  take  the 
first  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  first  and  fifth  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  Yes. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  In  New  York. 

Mr. HiTz.  When? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  take  the  first  and  fifth;  I  see  no  relationship. 

Mr.  HiTz.  AVliat  is  your  address  here  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  41  Moulton  Avenue. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  did  you  come  here  from  New  York  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  see  no  relationship  to  this  hearing;  I  do  not 
want  to  discuss  it.     I  take  the  first  and  fifth  amendments. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  ITiTz.  Have  you  ever  resided  in  Sharpies,  West  Virginia? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  No,  I  never  resided  in  Sharpies,  West  Virginia,  or 
whatever  it's  called. 

Mr.  HiTz.  In  or  near  there  or  in  the  State  of  West  Virginia',  have 
you  ever  signed  a  Communist  Party  nominating  petition? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  never  resided  in  that  area. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Tliat  is  not  my  question. 

Mrs.  Alexander.  What  is  your  question  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  In  or  near  that  city  or  in  the  State  of  West  Virginia,  did 
you  ever  sign  a  Commuinst  Party  nominating  petition  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  have  not.  I  have  never  resided  in  or  near  that 
city. 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute.  Counsel.  [To  witness.]  I  don't  believe 
your  answer  was  responsive  to  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  sorry,  it  was  not.  Would  you  please  be  responsive 
to  the  question  in  your  answer.  It  had  to  do  with  a  Communist  Party 
nominating  petition  ? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mrs.  Alexander.  Will  you  please  explain  that  question  ?  Are  you 
asking  me  if  I  lived  in  that  area  and  signed  a  petition  or  are  you  ask- 
ing me  if  I  signed  a  Communist  Party  petition? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  did  not  say  anything  about  living  there.  I  said,  in  or 
near  the  town  of  Sharpies  or  in  the  State  or  West  Virginia,  have  you 
ever  signed  a  Communist  Party  nominating  petition  ? 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1633 

Mrs.  Ajlexandek.  I  have  never  signed  a  Communist  Party  petition 
in  or  near  Sharpies,  West  Virginia. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Anywhere  else? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  What  is  the  question  you  were  asking  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  In  the  entire  country,  have  you  signed  a  nominating  peti- 
tion of  tlie  Communist  Party  'i 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  see  no  reason  for  this  question,  no  purpose  for 
this  hearing.    I  take  the  first  and  fifth  amendments. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Well,  Mr.  Chairman,  let  the  record  show  that  the  in- 
vocation of  the  fifth  amendment  is  recognized  reason  for  permitting  the 
declination  and  that  the  question  of  relevancy  is  not  accepted  as  a  basis. 
The  witness  has  linked  the  two,  and  I  think  the  record  should  be  very 
clear  that  the  committee  accepts  the  invocation  of  the  fifth  amendment 
only. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  agree,  and  it  will  so  show. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Mrs.  Alexander,  I  would  think  that  it  would  speed  the 
course  of  this  proceding,  which  does  eventually  have  to  terminate 
and  may  well  terminate  in  the  mid  or  latter  part  of  this  afternoon, 
if  you  feel  that  your  rights  are  protected,  if  when  you  decide  not  to 
answer  the  question  of  mine,  you  state  the  reasons  in  a  few  words  or 
record  by  reference  your  other  objections  previously  made.  We  are  en- 
deavoring to  provide,  as  best  we  can,  and  although  it  may  not  apply 
to  you,  I  would  like  to  suggest  that  the  witnesses  who  have  been  sum- 
moned here  are  ones  the  committee  is  desirous  of  hearing,  and  if  we 
do  not  have  an  opportunity  to  hear  you  for  the  rest  of  this  session  or 
any  of  the  other  witnesses,  it  may  well  be  necessary  to  call  them  to 
Washington. 

Now,  would  you  please  be  as  brief  as  you  feel  your  rights  will  permit. 
Give  us  an  outline  of  your  formal  education,  please  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  see  no  purpose  of  giving  that.  I  refuse  to  answer 
for  all  the  reasons  that  I  formerly  gave. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Would  you  give  your  employment  record,  Mrs.  Alexan- 
der, and,  unless  you  give  it,  would  you  please  give  me  an  opportunity 
to  make  a  suggestion  to  you  about  the  form  of  your  objection.  Please 
tell  me,  are  you  going  to  answer  the  question  responsively,  or  are  you 
going  to  object  to  the  question  ? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  HiTz.  My  pending  and  last  question  is.  Are  you  going  to  answer 
the  previous  question  responsively,  or  are  you  going  to  announce  an 
objection  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  am  going  to  refuse  to  answer  all  of  your  ques- 
tions, based  on  all  of  the  things  I  have  said  before  and  all  of  the 
amendments  that  I  am  taking. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  And  does  what  you  have  just  said  apply  to  my  last  ques- 
tion with  respect  to  employment  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  Yes,  it  does. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  may  I  suggest  again  that  unless  you  have  a  new  ob- 
jection to  make  that  you  attempt  to  facilitate  our  situation  here  by 
saying,  "I  object  to  answering  the  question  for  the  reasons  previously 
stated."  And  I  am  going  to  suggest  to  you  that  if  you  do  not  resort 
to  your  rights  in  that  fashion,  it  will  be  necessary  to  excuse  you  and 
to  call  you  later,  and  later  may  well  be  in  Washington,  D.C.    We  do 


1634    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

not  intend  to  hamper  any  of  your  rights,  but  we  think  the  procedure 
can  be  facilitated. 

My  next  question  is 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Now  Mrs.  Alexander,  I  am  not  certain  whether  or  not  we 
have  got  into  the  record  that  you  did  not  care  to  answer  and  pose  an 
objection  to  the  question  as  to  your  employment.  Do  you  object  to 
answering  the  question,  and  is  the  objection  the  same  objection  made 
previously  in  this  hearing  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  of  the  reasons  I  previ- 
ously stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Thank  you.  Were  you  present  yesterday  in  this  room 
during  the  proceedings  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  Yes,  I  was. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  hear  Mr.  Berecz  testify  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  Who  is  he  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  first  witness. 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  heard  the  witness  testify. 

Mr.  HiTz.  He  has  identified  you  in  his  testimony  as  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party  with  him.    Do  you  know  Mr.  Berecz  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  the  reasons  that  I  previ- 
ously gave. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  present  at  a  Communist  Party  meeting  with 
Mr.  Berecz  in  1961  when  Mortimer  Scheer  was  expelled  from  the  party 
at  the  direction  of  two  national  leaders  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  of  the  reasons  that  I 
have  stated  previously. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Now,  we  have  facilitated  this  proceeding  a  little  bit.  I 
would  like  to  suggest  to  you  and  your  attorney  that  henceforth  you 
might  consider  the  possibility  of  saying,  "I  refuse  to  answer  for  the 
same  reasons."  You  do  not  have  to  take  that  procedure.  If  you  don't, 
I  am  suggesting  to  the  chairman  that  we  excuse  you  temporarily. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  next  question,  Mrs.  Alexander :  Were  you  invited  to 
leave  the  party  at  the  same  time  as  the  expulsion  of  Mortimer  Scheer 
as  of  the  meeting  in  October  of  1961  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  of  the  reasons  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  Mortimer  Scheer,  to  your  knowledge,  then  partici- 
pate in  the  formation  of  an  organization  known  as  Progressive  Labor, 
Progressive  Labor  party,  or  a  name  containing  Progressive  Labor  in 
it? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  of  the  reasons  previously 
stated. 

Mr,  HiTZ.  I  would  like  to  make  this  observation,  Mrs.  Alexander, 
that  perhaps  we  could  shorten  this  by  saying,  "I  object  to  answering 
for  the  same  reasons." 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Counsel,  I  disagree.  I  think  her  answer  is  suf- 
ficient for  the  record. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Thank  you.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party,  Mrs.  Alexander? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  of  the  reasons  previously 
stated. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1635 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

]\Irs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  of  the  reasons  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  That  includes  the  fifth  amendment? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  That  includes  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Pool.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Was  the  expulsion  of  Mortimer  Scheer,  to  which  there 
has  been  testimony  before  in  this  hearing  yesterday,  because  he  and 
others  urged  the  dissolution  of  the  Commimist  Party  for  the  j)urpose 
of  avoiding  the  registration  provisions  of  the  Internal  Security  Act 
of  1950,  which  was  then  about  to  be  enforced  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  of  the  reasons  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  agree  with  the  strategy  expressed  by  Mr,  Morti- 
mer Scheer  in  his  dispute  with  the  leaders  of  the  Communist  Party 
at  that  time  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  of  the  reasons  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you,  Mrs.  Alexander,  a  member  of  the  Progressive 
Labor  Movement,  group,  or  party  ? 

Mrs.  Alexander.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  all  of  the  reasons  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  is  excused. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  again  ask  that  there  be 
appended  to  the  record  a  facsimile  of  the  white  card  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  You  have  asked  that  before,  and  we  have  taken  it  under 
advisement. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  I  am  doing  so  again. 

Mr.  Pool.  Let  the  record  show  that  you  ask  it  in  this  instance. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  As  a  violation  of  Rule  XI,  paragraph  26. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  May  I  call  the  next  witness  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Call  the  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Eichard  Alexander. 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Counsel,  will  you  come  here? 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Pool.  Be  seated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  state  to  the  conmiittee 
that  the  counsel,  Mr.  Faulkner,  who  represented  the  last  witness  and 
who  will  represent  Richard  Alexander,  has  shifted  positions  with  the 
witness  chair,  so  that  it  will  facilitate  his  client,  the  witness,  in  hear- 
ing. I  understand  he  has  a  hearing  problem;  that  is  the  only  reason 
for  the  shift. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right. 

TESTIMONY  OP  EICHARD  H.  ALEXANDER,  ACCOMPANIED  BY 
COUNSEL,  STANLEY  FAULKNER 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Will  you  give  your  full  name,  Mr.  Alexander  ? 
Mr.  Alexander.  I  want  to  make  a  statement  to  this  committee 
before  I  am  sworn  in.    Should  I  do  that  before? 
Mr.  HiTZ.  I  think  we  should  know  who  is  making  the  statement  ? 
Mr.  Alexander.  Richard  Alexander. 


1636    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  you  are  represented  by  Attorney  Faulkner,  is  that 
correct. 

Mr.  Alexander.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  Stanley  Faulkner. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  will  give  you  permission  to  make  a  statement.  I  would 
like  you  to  make  it  brief  and  concise. 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  have  it  typed  out ;  it's  quite  a  brief  statement. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  hand  me  a  copy  of  it  please? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Do  you  have  another  copy? 

Mr.  Alexander.  There  is  just  one  page.  It's  not  even  a  full  page. 
I  challenge  the  legalitv  of  this  committee 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute. 

The  witness  may  go  ahead. 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  challenge  the  legality  of  this  committee  on  the 
following  counts :  First,  the  two  leading  members  of  this  committee 
are  sitting  in  Congress  illegally,  as  defined  by  the  14th  and  15th 
amendments.  They  represent  only  a  small  group  of  segregationists, 
having  been  elected  by  a  total  of  somewhat  over  11,000  votes  in  con- 
stituencies of  over  300,000  eligible  persons.  Over  100,000  of  these 
persons  are  Negro  and  denied  their  legal  right  to  vote.  For  this 
reason,  this  committee  is  illegal  and  unconstitutional. 

Second,  tlie  Constitution  specifically  denies  the  right  of  Congress 
to  legislate  in  the  field  of  ideas,  to  pillory  persons  for  expression  of 
ideas  is  subversive  of  the  bill 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  hate  to  interrupt  you,  Mr.  Alexander.  I  have  a  sug- 
gestion to  make  to  the  chairman,  and  my  suggestion,  Mr.  Chairman, 
is  that  this  is  going  beyond  a  statement  of  legal  objections.  He  is  urg- 
ing his  point  and  he  is  arguing  it.  The  Barneblatt  case  in  the  Su- 
preme Court  disposed  of  all  of  the  legal  aspects  of  the  opinion  that  he 
is  apparently  endeavoring  to  make.  I  suggest  that  he  should  confine 
his  statement  to  legal  objections  and  not  urge  to  argue  or  embellish 
them. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  are  so  ordered  to  do. 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  am  trying  my  best  to  limit  it  to  a  legal  objection. 

Mr.  Pool.  Limit  it  to  that  then,  and  let's  not  have  any  argument. 

Mr.  Alexander.  The  counsel  is  the  one  who  is  being  argumentative. 

Mr.  Pool.  He  is  right,  and  the  Chair  so  rules,  and  state  your  objec- 
tions and  go  on. 

Mr.  Alexander.  That  is  what  I  am  trying  to  do. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right. 

Mr.  Alexander.  That  the  expression  of  ideas  is  subversive  of  the 
Bill  of  Rights  and  is  directly  counter  to  the  first  amendment.  For 
this  reason,  this  committee  is  illegally  constituted  and  unconstitu- 
tional. 

Third,  the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution  is  utilized  by  this 
committee  in  a  manner  exactly  contrary  to  the  meaning  and  origin  of 
this  amendment.  The  fifth  amendment  is  a  reflection  of  the  struggles 
in  England  between  the  liated  Inquisition,  that  infamous  committee 
before 

Mr.  Johansen.  Just  a  minute.  The  witness  is  arguing  and  attempt- 
ing to  expound  on  the  point.  If  the  witness  wants  to  invoke  the  fifth 
amendment  in  total  or  in  part  as  a  reason,  he  is  at  liberty  to  do  so. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1637 

Mr.  Alexander.  Tliat  is  not  what  I  am  doing. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Just  precisely  the  point  I  am  makinti^.  The  witness 
is  arguing  the  matter,  and  I  suggest  he  confine  himself  simply  to  a 
statement  of  his  gromid. 

]\Ir.  Pool.  You  are  so  ordered  to  do,  and  don't  present  arguments  on 
your  points.    State  your  objections. 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  am  stating  my  legal  objections  to  the  sitting  of 
this  committee,  that  this  committee  is  illegal. 

Mr.  Pool.  Go  ahead  and  state  them. 

Mr.  Alexander.  And  that  is  exactly  what  I  am  doing,  if  you  will 
give  me  a  chance. 

Mr.  Pool.  We  are  not  going  to  sit  here  and  listen  to  an  argument. 
You  can  take  the  time  to  state  your  objections.  You  have  a  right  to 
do  that,  and  that  is  it. 

Mr.  Alexander.  That  Inquisition 

Mr.  HiTz.  Excuse  me.    May  we  go  off  the  record,  Mr.  Chairman? 

Mr.  Pool.  Off  the  record. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Pool.  On  the  record. 

In  view  of  the  fact  that  you  are  presenting  arguments  and  not 
stating  your  objections  and  in  view  of  the  fact  that  this  committee  has 
other  witnesses  there  to  be  heard,  you  are  temporarily  excused  until 
later  in  the  day,  if  we  can  get  to  you. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  Mr.  Chairman,  my  client  is  not  raising  arguments. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  will  excuse  the  witness  at  this  time.  We  don't  have 
time  to  get  into  an  argument  with  his  counsel.  I  have  ruled  on  it,  and 
the  witness  is  excused  and  so  is  the  counsel. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  This  is  being  done  to  keep  me  in  Buffalo  for  an- 
other day  because  I  cannot  get  a  plane  to  New  York  mitil  tomorrow. 
Mr.  Hitz  knows  that. 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Marshal,  if  we  have  any  disturbance  there,  you  know 
what  to  do. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Gloria  Massa. 

TESTIMONY  OF  GLORIA  MASSA,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 
ROBEET  B.  FLEMING 

Mr.  Hitz.  I  am  asking  the  witness  a  question  that  is  necessary  to  ask. 
Is  your  name  Gloria  Massa  ? 

Mrs.  JVLvssA.  Yes,  it  is. 

Mr.  Fleming.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  w^ould  like  to  submit  for  the  record 
the  request  I  made  in  Washington. 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  moment.  Counsel.    You  have  not  been  identified. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Mrs.  Massa,  would  you  please  identify  your  counsel,  if  he 
be  that? 

Mrs.  Massa.  Mr.  Kobert  Fleming. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Would  you  please  consult  with  your  counsel  and  ask  him 
if  you  may  make  this  statement  to  the  Chair  ? 

Mr.  Fleming.  It  is  not  a  statement. 

Mrs.  Massa.  It  is  a  request. 

Mr.  Fleming.  Right. 

When  the  chairaian  opened  the  hearing  yesterday,  he  referred  to  a 
request  I  had  sent  to  Washington,  and  the  request  was  overruled.     It 


1638    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

had  to  do  with  asking  for  cross-examination.  I  would  like  this  request 
to  go  on  the  record,  if  I  may,  and  I  submit  it  for  that  purpose. 

Mr.  Pool.  It  will  be  taken  under  advisement. 

Mr.  Fleming.  Mrs.  Massa  would  like  to  make  a  statement  before 
being  sworn,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  If  she  will  be  brief  and  concise,  the  committee  will  hear 
her  statement.     Go  right  ahead. 

Mr.  Fleming.  Will  you  please  stop  the  pictures  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  witness  objects  to  pictures  during  her 
testimony.     I  think  it  is  within  her  rights. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right.  The  photographers  will  not  take  any  pictures 
during  her  testimony. 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  would  like  to  make  a  statement  in  regards  to  the 
legality  of  this  committee  and  the  tactics  that  it  has  employed.  I 
would  like  to  state  that  I  am  here  under  duress  with  an  aura  of  suspi- 
cion thrown  around  me,  me  and  my  family.  Although  I  have  been 
accused  of  no  crime,  your  marshals,  with  spirited  breath,  served  your 
subpena  late  at  night,  creating  fear  and  anxiety  to  my  children. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  am  afraid  I  will  interrupt  you  to  suggest  to  you  that 
our  rules  permit  a  brief  statement  of  relevant  legal  objections. 

Mrs.  JVIassa.  I  will  legally  refer  to  the  tactics  of  this  committee  and 
I  would  like  to  say  that  your  marshals  illegally  entered  my  home,  and 
I  would  like  that  on  the  record.  When  they  came  at  another  time  to 
serve  a  subpena,  if  it  weren't  for  my  dog  barking,  I  would  not  have 
known  that  they  were  inside  my  home.  I  would  now  like  to  take  legal 
exception  to  this  committee. 

First,  this  committee  is  violating  the  first  amendment  by  imping- 
ing the  rights  of  individuals  for  free  political  thought,  the  right  of 
assembly,  and  free  association.  This  committee  conducts  hearings  and 
obtains  evidence,  not  in  regard  to  crimes,  but  in  regard  to  these  rights 
as  guaranteed  under  the  first  amendment.  Legally,  it  cannot  legis- 
late against  these  rights. 

Secondly,  the  committee  is  violating  the  fifth  amendment  when  it 
guarantees  due  process  of  law,  which  we  are  not  getting  in  these 
hearings. 

Thirdly,  under  the  sixth  amendment,  the  committee  is  denying  us 
the  right  of  cross-examining. 

Four,  the  committee  has  also  violated  the  14th  amendment  because 
many  of  its  members  have  been  elected  in  areas  where  over  half  of  the 
citizens  are  denied  the  right  to  vote. 

Also,  the  sixth  amendment  is  being  violated  because  we  are  not  al- 
lowed the  right  of  cross-examination,  and,  finally,  I  object  to  the 
smears  that  this  committee  is  making  by  just  calling  us  here,  that  we 
are  being  judged  guilty  of  something  by  just  appearing  before  this 
committee,  and  I  would  like  to  suggest,  as  a  concerned  citizen  of  our 
country,  that  Mr.  Pool  and  the  other  members  of  this  committee 
which  are  concerned  with  Americanism,  that  they  go  back  to  Dallas, 
Texas,  and  investigate  what  happened  in  that  city  that  allowed  our 
past  President  to  be  killed. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  want  to  warn  the  witness  that  we  will  not  have  any 
more  outbursts  and  insults  to  the  committee.  Now,  are  you  ready  to 
be  sworn  in?    Your  objections  are  overruled. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1639 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  ^ive  be- 
fore this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but 
the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mrs.  jVIassa.  I  do. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Your  maiden  name,  please,  Mrs.  Massa  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amend- 
ment. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  When  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

INIrs.  Massa.  I  would  like  to  state  at  this  time  that  I  am  not  going 
to  answer  this  question  or  any  other  qviestions  put  to  me  by  this  com- 
mittee on  the  following  constitutional  grounds. 

Mr,  HiTZ.  I  suggest,  Mrs.  Massa,  that  you  state  them  and  not  argue 
or  urge  them,  and  if  you  do  not,  I  am  going  to  suggest  to  the  commit- 
tee tliat  it  consider  postponing  your  argument  until  we  have  your 
objections  at  a  later  date. 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  will  be  glad  to  state  them  right  now. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Briefly. 

Mrs.  Massa.  Under  the  Bill  of  Rights,  article  T : 

Congress  shall  make  no  law  respecting  an  establishment  of  religion  or  pro- 
hibiting the  free  exercise  thereof ;  or  abridging  the  freedom  of  speech,  or  of  the 
pres^; :  or  of  the  right  of  the  people  peacefully  to  assemble,  and  to  petition  the 
Government  for  a  redress  of  grievances. 

Article  No.  V : 

No  person  shall  be  held  to  answer  for  a  capital,  or  otherwise  infamous  crime, 
unless  on  a  presentment  or  indictment  of  a  Grand  Jui-y,  except  in  cases  arising 
in  the  land  or  naval  forces,  or  in  the  Militia,  when  in  actual  service  in  time  of 
war  or  public  danger ;  nor  shall  any  person  be  subject  for  the  same  offense  to  be 
twice  put  in  jeopardy  of  life  or  limb ;  nor  shall  be  compelled  in  any  criminal 
case  to  be  a  witness  against  himself ;  nor  be  deprived  of  life,  liberty,  or  property, 
without  due  process  of  law ;  nor  shall  private  property  be  taken  for  public  use, 
without  just  compensation. 

Article  No.  VI: 

In  all  criminal  prosecutions,  the  accused  shall  enjoy  the  right  to  a  speedy  and 
public  trial,  by  an  impartial  jury  of  the  State  and  district  wherein  the  crime 
shall  have  been  committed,  and  which  district  shall  have  been  previously  as- 
certained by  law,  and  to  be  informed  of  the  nature  and  cause  of  the  accusation; 
to  be  confronted  with  the  witnesses  against  him ;  to  have  compulsory  process 
for  obtaining  witnesses  in  his  favor,  and  to  have  the  assistance  of  Counsel  for  his 
defense. 

That  is  my  answer  to  your  question. 

]Mr.  HiTz.  Does  that  answer  botli  when  and  where  you  were  born, 
Mrs,  Massa,  or  just  part  of  it  ? 

Mrs,  Massa.  That  answers  your  question,  sir. 

jNIr.  JoHANSEN.  ]Mr.  Chairman,  so  the  record  is  clear,  in  the  reasons 
that  the  witness  cited,  the  witness  includes  the  self-incrimination 
clause  of  the  fifth  amendment ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mrs.  IVIassa.  I  have  read  the  whole  fifth  amendment,  sir,  so  it  includes 
all  ])arts  of  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliat  is  your  present  address,  Mrs.  Massa  ? 

]Mrs.  ISIassa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mv.  HiTz.  Would  you  furnish  the  committee  with  a  statement  of 
your  educational  background? 

36-414—9 64 


1640    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y,,    AREA 

Mrs.  ]\1assa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  have  you  been  employed  ? 

Mrs.  ^LvssA.  I  refuse  to  answer  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Berecz,  the  previous  witness,  has  identified  you  as  a 
person  laiown  to  him  as  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party;  is  that 
testimony  correct  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  gromids  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  a  member  of  the  Commmiist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  gromids  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  not  a  member  of  the  secretariat  of  the  Commu- 
nist Party  in  Buli'alo  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Describe  the  nature  of  the  duties  that  you  perform  as  a 
member  of  the  secretariat  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  tlie  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  know  Marty  Zelman  ? 

Mrs.  JMassa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz,  Do  you  know  Sy  Rudner  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  present  at  a  meeting  in  the  fall  of  1961 

Mrs.  Massa,  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz. — at  which  time  leaders  of  the  Communist  Party  from 
New  York  City  expelled  Mortimer  Scheer  from  the  Communist  Party 
of  Erie  County,  New  York  ?     The  question  is  now  completed. 

Mrs.  JMassa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Do  you  know  what  brought  about  the  expulsion  from  the 
Comnmnist  Party  of  Mortimer  Scheer  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  commitee  is  possessed  of  information  that  jMorti- 
mer  Scheer  and  others  wanted  to  dissolve  the  Communist  Party  and 
to  form  a  new  group  which  they  felt  would  not  be  required  to  register 
under  the  Internal  Security  Act  of  1950;  is  that  information  true, 
Mrs.  Massa  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  This  committee  has  information  to  the  effect  that  Mr. 
Mortimer  Scheer  has  been  instrumental  in  tlie  creation  of  an  organiza- 
tion known  as  Progressive  Labor ;  do  you  have  any  knowledge  of  such 
an  organization? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Or  of  Mr.  Mortimer  Scheer's  participation  in  the  move- 
ment ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  there  any  degree  of  cooperation  between  the  Commu- 
nist Party  of  Erie  County,  or  of  Buffalo,  and  the  Progressive  Labor 
organization  on  matters  affecting  Cuba  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  tlie  grounds  as  previously 
R(al(Ml. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA     1641 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  aware,  Mrs.  Massa,  of  any  activities  of  the  Pro- 
gressive Labor  Movement  or  organization  in  matters  affecting  Cuba  or 
travel  to  Cuba  by  people  from  this  country  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  PIiTZ,  Were  you  a  member  of  the  nationality  group  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  in  the  Buffalo  area  ? 

Mrs.  Massa.  I  refuse  to  ansvv'er  on  the  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  is  excused. 

Mr.  Pool.  Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Max  Berman. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed,  Counsel. 

Mr.  Gibson.  My  client  requests  no  more  photographs. 

Mr.  Pool.  Photographers,  please,  no  more  pictures. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MAX  BEHMAN,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL,  WILL 

GIBSON 

Mr.  KiTZ.  Mr.  Witness,  are  you  Max  Berman  ? 

Mr.  Beeman.  I  am. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  identify  your  counsel,  please  ? 

]Mr.  Berman.  Attorney  Will  Gibson. 

Mr.  HiTz.     The  address  of  your  counsel  ? 

Mr.  Gibson.  319  Main  Street. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  Mr.  Berman,  will  you  please  rise  and  be  sw^orn  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  would  like  to  make  a  brief  statement  before  I  do  that. 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  have  permission  to  make  a  brief  statement  and  state 
your  objections  and  not  argument.     Go  right  ahead. 

Mr.  Berman.  I  object  to  this  infamous  committee  as  illegally  con- 
stituted. Some  of  the  members  of  this  committee  do  not  represent  the 
people  m  their  home  districts  where  Negroes  and  poor  whites  are  not 
offered  the  opportunity  to  vote.  They  do  not  grant  the  subpenaed  that 
have  been  here  today  and  yesterday,  the  right  to  cross-examine  wit- 
nesses who  have  accused  them.  This  committee  is  a  do-nothing  com- 
mittee and  a  waste  of  the  taxpayers'  money.  I  object  to  the  position  of 
this  committee  that  this  is  an  open  hearing.  The  people  allowed  in 
were  not  on  a  first-come-first-served  basis, 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  objections  are  overruled.     Rise  and  be  sworn. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give 
before  this  committee,  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing 
but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  do. 

Mr.  Pool.  Will  you  at  this  time  raise  your  right  hand  rather  than 
your  left. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give 
before  this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing 
but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  do. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed,  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTz.  "\yiiat  is  your  address  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  all  the  grounds  of 
Constitution  offered  to  me. 

Mr.  HiTz.  And  wlien  and  where  were  you  born,  sir? 


1642    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mv.  Berman.  Just  a  minute. 
(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Air.  HiTZ.  This  goes  to  your  present  address  ? 
^  Mr.  Berman.  Yes,  sir.    I  am  taking  the  safeguard  that  the  Constitu- 
tion and  the  Bill  of  Eights  offer  me  under  the  1st,  3d,  5th,  6th,  9th, 
and  14th  amendments.    Therefore,  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question 
and  any  other  question  on  those  constitutional  grounds. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Were  you  born 

]Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute. 

Mr.  JonANSEN.  Does  that  include  the  fifth  amendment  and  the 
self-incrimination  clause? 

Mr.  Berman.  It  includes  the  1st,  3d,  5th,  9th,  14  amendments. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  as  previously  stated, 
on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  state  your  educational  attainments,  please,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

]\Ir.  HiTz.  Where  have  you  been  employed  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

]\Ir.  HiTz.  Where  are  you  employed  now  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Andrew  Berecz  has  testified  before  tliis  committee  that 
he  was  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  in  the  Buffalo  area  for  a  con- 
siderable period  of  time.  He  has  testified  that  you  are  a  person  known 
to  him  as  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  during  that  time.  Mr. 
Berman,  is  this  testimony  correct  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Berecz  has  also  testified  tliat  you  were  present  at  a 
Communist  meeting,  held  in  the  fall  of  1961,  during  which  Mortimer 
Scheer  was  expelled  from  membership  in  the  Communist  Party  by  two 
leaders  of  the  national  Communist  Party ;  is  this  testimony  as  it  per- 
tains to  you  correct  ? 

j\Ir.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Further  testimony  before  this  committee  is  that  Morti- 
mer Scheer  was  expelled  from  the  Communist  Party,  because  he  urged 
dissolution  of  the  Communist  Party  in  an  effort  to  prevent  registration 
under  the  national — under  the  Internal  Security  Act  of  1950 ;  is  that 
testimony  correct  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  just  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Within  your  knowledge,  did  Mortimer  Scheer,  after  his 
expulsion,  promote  the  organization  of  a  group  of  Communists  known 
as  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement  or  a  title  similar  to  that? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  at  present  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1643 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Commmiist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  ever  assigned  to  the  Communist  Party  to  in- 
filtrate other  organizations,  those  organizations  functioning  in  the 
Buffalo  area? 

Mr.  Beeman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  show  you  a  photograph  of  a  group  of  pickets  who  par- 
ticipated in  a  demonstration  before  the  Hunt  Chevrolet  Co.  on  Oc- 
tober 1,  1963.  I  ask  you  if  your  photograph  appears  in  the  group 
of  pickets? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  invited  to  participate  in  this  demonstration,  or 
did  you  participate  upon  your  own  volition? 

Mr.  Berman.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  as  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  There  will  be  no  further  questions.  The  witness  is 
excused. 

Mr.  Counsel,  may  I  inquire  as  to  how  many  additional  witnesses 
you  have  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  We  have  approximately  five  more  witnesses. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Are  you  ready  to  proceed  with  the  next  witness  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  am  ready. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Call  your  next  witness,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Marty  Zelman. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MIEOSLAW  B.  ZELMAN,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 

WILL  GIBSON 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Mr.  Zelman,  are  you  represented  by  counsel  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  Yes,  I  am. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Does  the  witness  have  a  statement  ? 

Mr.  Gibson.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  want  to  make  the  same  request,  that 
photographs  be  stopped  at  this  point. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  The  photographers  will  cease  taking  pictures  at  the 
witness'  request. 

Mr.  Zelman.  Yes,  I  do  have  objections  to  appearing  before  this 
committee. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  Proceed.     State  your  objections. 

Mr.  Zelman.  My  objections  are,  as  follows:  One,  this  committee 
seeks  to  inquire  into  the  realm  of  ideas  and  associations.  This  Con- 
stitution expressly  forbids  this.  I  believe  that  for  that  reason  alone, 
I  should  not  be  called  to  testify. 

Secondly,  this  committee  has  members  who  are  not,  in  fact,  repre- 
sentatives of  their  districts  because  a  whole  section  of  their  constitu- 
ents, the  Negro  people,  are  denied  their  right  to  vote.  They  therefore 
sit  in  Congress  and  on  this  committee  illegally.  On  this  alone,  I  also 
believe  I  should  not  be  called  to  testify. 

Thirdly,  these  hearings  are  not  public  because  card-carrying  friends 
of  the  committee  are  packed  into  this  small  hearing  room  before  the 

36-414—64 10 


1644    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO^    N.Y.,    AREA 

general  public  is  allowed  to  get  in,  and  this,  also,  is  sufficient  reason. 

Foartlily,  unless  the  committee  can  assure  me  that  no  eavesdropping 
equipment  is  used,  I  must  conclude  that  my  consultation  with  my  attor- 
ney, Mr.  Gibson,  is  not  private  and  privileged  communication  and,  on 
this  last  one,  I  would  ask  that  there  be  a  specific  response  to  this 
statement. 

Mr.  IcHORD.  I  can  assure  the  witness  that  the  Chair  has  checked 
with  the  counsel  and  there  is  no  eavesdropping  equipment  in  the  room 
at  the  instance  of  the  chairman  or  at  the  instance  of  the  committee  or 
the  instance  of  any  staff  member  of  the  committee  or  at  any  instance 
of  the  chairman.  The  Chair  is  so  informed,  so  I  can  assure  the  witness. 
Is  the  witness  ready  to  be  sworn  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  Just  a  moment.  I  would  like  to  confer  with  my 
counsel. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Zelman.  Yes,  I  am. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  gentleman  will  rise  and  be  sworn.  Do  you  solemnly 
swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  committee 
will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help 
you  God? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  do. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  will  be  seated. 

Counsel,  proceed  with  your  questions. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Your  full  name,  please,  sir,  is  what  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  Miroslaw  B.  Zelman,  M-i-r-o-s-l-a-w,  and  the  last 
name,  Z-e-1-m-a-n. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  also  known  by  the  first  name  of  "Marty"  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  Among  others. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  are  the  others  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  They  are  very  numerous.  I  have  many  nicknames; 
and  for  that  reason,  as  I  spelled  out  my  name,  it  is  somewhat  difficult 
sometimes.  People  call  me  by  a  number  of  different  kinds  of  names. 
I  cannot  recall  many  of  them.     Just  a  moment,  please. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

INIr.  HiTz.  What  nicknames  are  you  known  by  to  a  significant  group 
of  people?  By  that,  I  mean,  a  considerable  number,  not  merely  in  a 
very  narrow  group. 

Mr.  Zelman.  As  I  recall,  also,  quite  well  known  as  "Mike." 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  now  ask  you  only  for  those  by  which  you  make  your- 
self known ;  is  the  question  clear? 

Mr.  Zelman.  Yes ;  I  think  it  is. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Such  as  an  alias? 

Mr.  Zelman.  The  two  names  that  people  generally  call  me  by,  and 
I  accept,  are  "Mike"  and  "Marty." 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  gone  by  any  other  names  by  which,  I  mean, 
names  that  you  have  accepted?  This  question  is  not  limited  to  the 
present  time. 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  feel  tliat  I  must  decline  to  answer  this  question  on 
the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Pool.  What? 

Mr.  Zelman.  The  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  PIiTZ.  What  is  your  present  address,  sir  ? 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1645 

Mr.  Zelman.  At  this  point,  I  would  like  to  answer  the  question  in 
this  way :  I  decline  to  answer  any  and  all  further  questions  for  the 
following  reasons :  One,  this  committee  is  inquiring  into  the  realm  of 
ideas  and  associations  in  violation  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  of  the  Consti- 
tution ;  two,  because  of  my  privilege  under  the  fifth  amendment  not 
to  be  a  witness  against  myself.  The  first  one  is  the  first  amendment, 
and  the  second  is  the  fifth  amendment;  and,  further,  each  and  every 
one  I  refuse  to  answer  for  the  above  reasons. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  born,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answ^er  for  the  reasons  stated. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  AVliat  is  your  educational  background  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  for  the  reasons  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  are  you  employed  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  for  the  reasons  stated. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Your  past  employment  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  for  the  reasons  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Your  present  employment  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  any  and  all  questions  for  the  same 
reasons  as  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Andrew  Berecz  has  testified  that  he  knew  you  as  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Communist  Party.    Is  his  testimony  correct,  Mr.  Zelman  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  At  this  point,  I  would  like  to  make  this  response  to 
the  question.  By  asking  more  questions  at  this  point  on,  you  do  noth- 
ing but  convince  me  that,  in  fact,  you  want  to  try  me  in  the  newspapers 
and  convict  me  in  the  public  mind  without  due  process  of  law.  This 
is  in  violation  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  of  the  Constitution  and  is  the  third 
reason,  in  addition  to  the  other  two  reasons,  for  refusing  to  answer 
your  questions. 

Mr.  Pool.  Did  you  say  in  addition  to  the  other  two  reasons  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Pool.  Go  on. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  invite  the  ruling  of  the  Chair  on  the  additional  reasons. 

Mr.  Pool.  That  is  on  the  fifth  amendment;  he  invokes  the  fifth 
amendment. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Were  you  sent  to  the  Buffalo  area  by  the  Communist 
Party  to  act  as  a  colonizer  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  that  statement  on  the  three  rea- 
sons given  previously. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  nationality  group  of  the  Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr.  Zelman.  Again,  I  would  like  to  refuse  to  answer,  particularly 
for  the  third  reason  stated,  but  for  all  reasons,  as  well . 

Mr.  HiTz.  My  last  question  should  embrace  the  year  1961,  and  I 
now  reframe  the  question.  In  that  year,  were  you  a  member  of  the 
nationality  group  of  the  Communist  Party?  Is  your  answer  the 
same  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  Sir,  I  told  you,  and  you  must  know  my  answer  is  going 
to  be  precisely  the  same.  I  refuse  to  answer  any  and  all  questions  of 
this  committee  from  the  point  of  which  I  made  that  statement. 

Mr.  Pool.  On  what  grounds? 

Mr.  Zelman.  On  the  grounds  that  I  made,  sir.  I  think  the  record 
clearly  said  that  every  and  each  question  that  I  refuse  to  answer,  it 
is  precisely  for  the  three  reasons  I  have  given. 


1646    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  ever  collected  dues,  payments,  for  other 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  It's  not  a  question,  sir.    You  have  interrupted  me. 

Mr,  Zelman.  Whatever  the  question  is  going  to  be. 

Mr.  Pool.  Let  him  ask  the  question.    Proceed. 

Mr.  Hnz.  Have  you  ever  collected  dues,  payments,  from  other  per- 
sons known  to  you  as  Communist  Party  members  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  for  the  reasons  given. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Next  question:  Could  you  inform  the  committee  how 
dues,  payment  records,  are  presently  kept  by  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  Gentlemen,  I  will  answer  the  question  in  this  way: 
I  have  been  shocked  by  the  way  members  of  this  committee  keep  dis- 
regarding all  the  rights  under  the  Bill  of  Rights  except  their  eager- 
ness to  have  me  use  the  fifth  amendment,  which  I  do,  in  any  case. 

Mr.  Pool.  Let  the  witness  cease.  We  will  not  have  any  more  in- 
sults.   Just  state  your  objections. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  that  counsel  for  the  witness  advise  him 
as  to  proper  procedure  and  behavior  before  this  committee. 

Mr.  Pool.  Mr.  Counsel,  will  you  ask  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  In  the  fall  of  1961,  were  you  a  member  of  the  secretariat 
of  the  Communist  Party  in  the  Buffalo  area  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  By  asking  more  questions,  you  convince  me  that,  in 
fact,  you  want  to  try  me  in  the  newspapers,  present  a  case,  and  convict 
me  in  the  public  mind  without  due  process  of  law.  This  is  in  viola- 
tion of  the  14th  amendment,  I  believe  it  is,  and  is  a  third  reason,  in 
addition  to  the  other  two,  for  refusing  to  answer  this  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  committee  has  received  information  that  the  expul- 
sion of  Mortimer  Scheer  from  the  Commimist  Party  in  the  fall  of 
1961  resulted  in  Anthony  Massa  and  Sy  Rudner  being  appointed  to 
a  board  or  secretariat  to  handle  Buffalo  Communist  Party  affairs.  Is 
this  information  in  the  hands  of  the  committee  correct? 

Mr.  Zelman,  I  decline  to  answer  the  question  for  the  reasons  given. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  it  true  that,  in  July  of  1962,  William  L.  Patterson, 
chairman  of  the  New  York  Communist  Party,  came  to  Buffalo  and 
removed  Anthony  Massa  or  Tony  Massa  from  this  board  because  you 
had  complained  that  Massa  was  a  troublemaker  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  the  question  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  presently  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party 
secretariat  in  Buffalo  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  You  are  trying  to  present  a  case  to  the  public  without 
giving  me  due  process  of  law;  and  for  that  and  all  the  other  reasons  I 
mentioned,  I  refuse  to  answer  that  and  any  other  question  you  put 
to  me. 

Mr,  HiTz,  Was  not  this  secretariat  appointed  by  Betty  Gannett 
Tormey  in  a  meeting  held  in  your  home,  of  September  1962? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  show  you  a  photograph  taken  April  2Y,  1961,  at  a  walk- 
f or-peace  parade.  Do  you  recognize  yourself  as  an  active  demonstrator 
in  this  parade  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  No  need  to  give  me  the  pictures  since  I  will,  in  any  case, 
refuse  to  answer  the  question  for  the  reasons  given. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1647 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wlio  oi'gciiiized  this  demonstration  and  what  was  its 
specific  purpose  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  Tliis  is  getting  tedious.  It  is  w\asting  the  time  which 
the  committee  is  so  concerned  about.  I  reject  the  question  on  the 
grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  show  you  a  photograph  taken  on  August  6,  19G1,  and 
ask  you  if  you  can  identify  yourself  as  a  participant  in  this  demonstra- 
tion. 

JNIr.  Zelman.  Don't  bother  giving  it  to  me  because  the  answer  is 
going  to  be  the  same,  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Who  organized  this  demonstration  and  what  was  its 
purpose  ? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  HiTz.  The  committee  has  information  that  Edward  Wolken- 
stein,  Phyllis  Scheer,  Everett  Jones,  Beatrice  Berman,  all  previously 
identified  in  this  hearing,  also  took  part  in  these  particular  demonstra- 
tions. Did  you  know  them  as  members  of  the  Communist  Party  in 
Buffalo? 

Mr.  Zelman.  I  decline  to  answer  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  HiTz.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  is  excused. 

Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Pranis  is  the  next  witness. 

I  understand  that  Mr.  Pranis'  attorney,  Mr.  Lipsitz,  is  not  present 
at  the  moment. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  don't  think  the  photographers  ought  to  get  on 
top  of  this  witness  wdien  he  isn't  even  in  the  chair. 

Mr.PooL.  Will  the  photographers  please  refrain  ? 

We  will  stand  in  recess  for  10  minutes. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Mr.  Pool.  The  committee  will  come  to  order. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Joe  Pranis. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  ruling  of  the  Chair  started  these  hearings  yesterday 
with  no  picturetaking  in  the  room  with  the  testimony  being  heard, 
aPxd  I  would  hope  that  the  photographers  would  desist  from  taking 
pictures  wlien  the  testimony  is  being  taken. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOSEPH  PRANIS,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 
mCHAPvD  LIPSITZ 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Pranis,  is  your  attorney  here  ? 

Mr.  Lipsitz.  Yes.     Richard  Lipsitz,  appearing  for  Mr.  Pranis. 
Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  the  photographers  are  creeping 
up  on  this  witness. 

Mr.  Pool.  1  will  caution  the  photographers  again. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Witness,  is  your  name  Joseph  Pranis  ? 

Mr.  Pranls.  It  is. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Will  you  identify  your  lawyer,  please  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  Richard  Lipsitz. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Spell  that,  please  ? 

jSIr.  Pranis.  L-i-p-s-i-t-z. 

I  would  like  to  make  a  statement  before  I  am  sworn. 


1648    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTz.  Proceed  with  your  statement  in  conformity  with  the 
rules,  please,  sir. 

Mr,  Pkanis.  I  join  with  many  of  the  witnesses  in  many  of  the  ex- 
pressions of  opposition  to  this  committee  on  the  grounds  that  it  is  in 
violation  of  the  first  amendment  of  our  Constitution,  which  gives 
Americans  freedom  of  expression,  of  opinion,  of  speech,  and  that 
this  committee  has  no  business  investigating  anyone's  opinions — of 
anyone's  associations. 

I  also  join  in  the  expressions  that  have  been  made  in  regard  to  the 
fact  that  many  members  of  this  conunittee  are  in  Congress  illegally 
in  violation  of  the  14-th  amendment  of  our  Constitution,  that  the  tactics 
of  this  committee  constitute  a  trial,  in  a  sense,  a  trial  in  which  people 
are  accused  of  guilt  by  association. 

I  further  oppose  this  committee  because,  as  a  union  member,  the 
UAW  constitution  has  called  for  the  abolition  of  this  committee,  and 
I  support  my  union  in  that  stand. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  that  the  end  of  your  statement,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  It  is. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Will  you  stand  and  be  sworn,  please  ? 

Mr,  Pool.  Your  objections  are  overruled.  Will  you  stand  and  be 
sworn  ? 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give 
before  this  committee  is  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but 
the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Pranis,  I  do. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  is  your  address,  presently,  Mr.  Pranis  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  What  is  the  relevancy  of  that  question.  Counselor? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Identification  of  you  and  to  determine  certain  matters 
concerning  which  this  committee  has  received  testimony  and  infor- 
mation. 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  am  sure  you  already  know  that ;  however,  my  address 
is  260  Somerville  Avenue,  Tonawanda. 

Mr.  HiTZ,  When  and  where  w^ere  you  born  ? 

Mr,  Pranis.  What  is  the  relevancy  of  that  question  ? 

Mr,  HiTz.  The  same  relevancy  as  stated  for  the  last  one. 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  fail  to  follow  you. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  It  is  in  aid  of  identification  of  you  in  the  light  of  testi- 
mony that  has  been  received  by  this  committee  comiecting  you  with 
important  activities  with  the  Communist  Party  in  the  Erie  County 
area.  That  is  a  subject  matter  that  has  been  held  continuously  to  be 
within  the  subject  of  proper  inquiry  of  this  committee  and  its  juris- 
diction. 

Mr.  Pranis.  How  does  the  place  of  my  birth  relate  to  this?  I  still 
don't  understand. 

Mr.  IIiTz.  It  is  a  matter  of  identification  within  the  framework  of 
information  and  evidence  that  we  have. 

Mr.  Pool,  Does  the  witness  refuse  to  answer  the  question  ? 

Mr,  HiTZ.  He  is  still  probing  for  the  explanation  of  relevancy  and 
pertinency  which  I  have  completed,  Mr.  Chairman,  and  I  feel  that 
our  record  is  sufficiently  made  and  that  he  should  be  pressed  for  an 
answer  by  a  demand  from  the  Chair, 

Mr,  Pool,  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  quest  ion. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y,,    AREA    1649 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  will  answer  the  question.  I  still  don't  understand  it, 
but  I  was  bom  in  Cork,  Ireland. 

]SIr.  HiTZ.  When  was  it  that  you  were  born  in  Cork,  Ireland  ? 

Mr.  PiLYNis.  As  you  already  know,  I  was  born  on  October  17,  1918. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  has  been  your  educational  background  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  presume  you  feel  this  has  relevancy  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  I  do,  or  I  would  not  ask  the  question. 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  do  not  believe  you ;  therefore,  I  decline  to  answer 
this  question  on  the  grounds  of  the  1st  amendment,  on  the  grounds  of 
the  6th  amendment,  on  the  grounds  of  the  14th  amenchnent,  and  on 
the  grounds  of  the  5th  amendment. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  refuses  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  5th 
amendment. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Where  are  you  employed,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  As  you  well  laiow  already,  I  am  employed  at  General 
Motors,  which  yesterday  announced  a  new  record  of  profit. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  part  of  General  Motors  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  Tonawanda  Forge  Plant. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Where  did  you  work  before  that? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel. ) 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Wliere  did  you  work  before  working  at  that  plant,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  Is  this  relevant  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  It  is,  or  I  wouldn't  ask  the  question. 

Mr.  Pranis.  Will  you  explain  the  relevancy? 

Mr.  HiTz.  It  is  important  to  understand  the  background,  the  iden- 
tification and  places  of  activity  of  witnesses  who  have  been  identified 
by  testimony  or  by  information  as  being  members  of  the  Communist 
Party  in  this  area. 

Mr.  Pranis.  Since  I  agree  with  my  union,  that  this  committee  should 
be  abolished,  I  do  not  feel  that  I  can,  under  conscience,  cooperate  with 
this  committee.  I  refuse  to  answer  this  question  on  the  grounds  pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  This  committee  has  received  testimony  that  you  have 
been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party.  Is  this  information  correct ; 
is  this  testimony  correct  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  IIiTz.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  Commimist  Party  on  January 
15,1960? 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  asked  you  that  question  because  this  committee  has  re- 
ceived information  that  a  Communist  Party  meeting  was  held  in  your 
home  on  that  date,  January  15,  1960,  which  was  attended  by  Helen 
Schwartz,  Andrew  Berecz,  among  others.  I  ask  you  if  you  recall  let- 
ting your  home  be  used  as  a  meeting  place  for  members  of  the  Tona- 
wanda group  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  presently  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Mr.  Pranis.  The  people  who  I  work  with  know  what  I  am,  what 
I  do,  what  I  believe  in.  It  is  no  business  of  this  committee,  under  the 
first  amendment,  to  inquire  into  my  beliefs,  my  associations ;  and  I  have 
the  right — which  I  invoke — under  the  fifth  amendment,  and  I  refuse  to 
answer  this  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 


1650    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  here  yesterday  in  this  lieariiig  room  wlien  Mr. 
Berecz  testified. 

Mr.  Pranis.  Unfortunately,  I  was. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  acquainted  with  Mr.  Berecz,  and  do  you  know 
him  as  a  former  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Are  you  a  member  of  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement, 
Mr.  Pranis  ? 

Mr.  Pranis.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  LipsiTZ.  Is  this  witness  excused  from  the  subpena,  Mr.  Counsel  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  suggest  that  he  be  excused  from  the  subpena,  and  it  is 
my  understanding,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  tliose  who  have  testified  and 
have  been  excused,  were  excused  from  their  subpena,  as  well;  am  I 
correct  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  You  are  excused.    That  is  right. 

Call  your  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Emanuel  Fried. 

TESTIMONY  OF  EMANUEL  J.  FEIED,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 
ROBERT  B.  FLEMING 

Mr.  Fried.  Don't  be  frightened  by  all  my  material.  I  intend  to  be 
brief,  temperate,  and  instructive,  if  possible. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Your  name  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  Emanuel  J.  Fried. 

Mr.  Fleming.  Would  you  stop  the  pictures  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Cameramen,  there  was  an  objection  made  to  picture- 
taking. 

Mr.  Fried.  I  would  like  to  make  a  very  brief  one-sentence  statement. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  First  of  all,  lias  counsel  been  identified  ? 

Mr.  Fleming.  Robert  B.  Fleming,  77  West  Eagle  Street,  Buffalo, 
New  York. 

Mr.  Fried.  Without  taking  any  great  time  of  the  committee  or  go- 
ing through  all  the  reasons,  I  do  appear  here  without  waiving  my  be- 
liefs and  declaration  that  the  enabling  resolution  is  unconstitutional 
and,  therefore,  this  committee  and  this  entire  hearing  is  unconstitu- 
tional. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  invite  the  ruling  of  the  Chair  on  his  objections  to  be 
sworn. 

Mr.  Pool.  Objections  overruled.  If  you  will  stand  now,  I  will  swear 
you. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give 
before  this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  v/hole  truth,  and  nothing 
but  the  trutli,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  I  do. 

For  identification  purposes  only,  my  name  is  Emanuel  J.  Fried  of 
125  Chatham  Avenue  of  Bulfalo,  New  York,  and  that  is  it,  gentlemen. 

Mr.  PIiTz.  When  and  wliere  were  you  born,  Mr.  Fried? 

Mr.  Fried.  This  is  in  response  to  your  question.  The  last  time  I 
appeared  before  this  committee,  I  did  not  answer  any  of  your  questions. 
At  that  time,  I  received  a  one-sentence  letter  from  Albert  Einstein.  I 
will  read  you  the  letter.    He  said,  "I  am  convinced  you  did  the  right 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    TPIE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1651 

thing  and  fulfilled  your  duty  as  a  citizen  under  difficult  circumstances." 
1  stand  on  that, 

[Applause.] 

Mr.  Pool.  What  was  the  question  again  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  born? 

Mr.  Fried.  In  response  to  your  question,  may  I  briefly  and  temper- 
ately— and  believe  it  or  not,  in  an  honest  and  instructive  attempt — 
suggest  something?  V/e  have  all  gone  through  an  experience  here 
which  has  raised  serious  questions,  and  I  say  this  to  you  as  one  man 
to  another  because  I  found  out  when  we  were  on  the  elevators  that 
we  are  all  human,  and  I  was  kidding  around  with  some  of  you,  and  we 
are  all  hmnan.  It  seems  that  we  put  on  certain  cliche  approaches  in 
here.  In  order  to  help  regain  respect  for  these  proceedings,  in  general, 
not  just  this  committee,  and  restore  respect  to  dispel  some  feelings 
that  there  is  a  severe  irrationality  about  such  proceedings,  I  ask  that 
this  committee  call  upon  the  President  of  the  United  States,  the 
Speaker  of  the  House  of  Representatives,  the  Presiding  Officer  of  the 
Senate,  and  the  Chief  Justice  of  the  Supreme  Court  to  name  a  com- 
mission to  inquire  into  the  rationality  of  this  committee  and  the  mem- 
bers of  this  coimnittee  and  these  proceedings. 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  answer  is  not  responsive  to  the  question. 

Mr.  Fried.  In  response  to  the  question 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Fried.  If  you  insist.  My  answer,  of  course,  is  going  to  be,  I 
will  not  answer.  I  object  to  the  question  on  the  basis — I  want  to  say 
one  word  on  them,  the  first  and  fifth.  The  first,  I  say  this  not  to 
be  sharp,  but  so  there  is  no  equivocation  about  it,  it's  none  of  your 
business. 

Mr.  Pool.  Are  you  basing  your  refusal  on  the  fifth  amendment  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  I  am  coming  to  that,  the  fifth.  Now,  I  am  going  to  be 
brief  and  I  really  don't  care  to  waste  my  time  any  more  than  you  care 
to  waste  yours.  The  fifth  amendment,  as  I  have  said,  because  of  the 
open  position  I  have  taken  on  this — have  taken  and  will  take — that 
you  are  trying  to  hang  me  and  that  noose  is  dropping  over,  and  I  say, 
the  fifth  amendment  all  the  way,  inclusive  of  every  part  of  it. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  counsel  proceed  with  the  next  question, 
and  the  witness  has  invoked  his  adequate  protection. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  to  the  next  question. 

]\Ir.  PIiTZ.  What  is  your  educational  background,  Mr.  Fried  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  In  response  to  that  question,  I  offer  to  debate  the  ration- 
ality of  this  committee  before  the  chamber  of  commerce  of  this  com- 
munity. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  the  question  again. 

Mr.  IIiTz.  Mr.  Chairman,  before  the  next  question,  I  suggest  that 
the  Cliair  advise  the  witness,  as  I  have  advised  witnesses  before,  with 
regard  to  the  rule  of  procedure  that  permits  them  to  make  legal 
objections. 

Mr.  Fried.  May  I  respond  to  that,  briefly  ? 

Mr.  ,IoHANSEN.  Will  the  witness  suspend? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Further,  I  would  request  he  be  advised  to  not  elucidate 
and  argue  the  objections  that  should  be  stated  by  him  in  a  brief  and 
temperate  way. 


1652    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Pool.  The  counsel  has  stated  the  rule  correctly,  and  I  caution  the 
witness  to  abide  by  it. 

Mr.  FKif:D.  May  I  say  something  ?     I  believe  I  am  being  brief. 

Mr.  Pool.  Go  ahead  to  the  next  question,  Comisel. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  is  your  employment  background,  sir  ? 

Mr.  FiiiED.  In  response  to  your  question,  1  ask  that  this  committee 
waive  its  constitutional  innnunity  and  stand  trial — stand  trial  for 
crimes  against  the  people. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  the  chairman  direct  the  Avitness  to  suspend 
this  line  of  statement  under  warning  that  if  he  fails  to  do  so,  he  will 
be  removed  from  the  hearing  room  and  that  he  be  directed  to  answer 
the  question  in  the  proper  manner. 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth,  sir,  all  the  way. 

]\Ir.  Pool.  You  are  so  directed  as  stated  by  a  member  of  the  com- 
mittee, Mr.  Johansen,  and  I  expect  you  to  answer  the  questions  put 
to  you  by  counsel. 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth  all  the  way. 

Mr.  Pool.  If  you  have  object  ions,  state  them  briefly  and  to  the  point, 
and  we  wall  not  have  any  fui-ther  demonstrations  on  your  part. 

Mr.  Fried.  Wiat  is  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  State  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  is  your  employment  background  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  lIiTZ.  For  how  long  a  period  were  you  employed  by  the  United 
Electrical,  Eadio  and  Machine  Workers  of  America  or  the  UE,  as  it  is 
more  commonly  known  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTz.  AVere  yon  a  meml)er  of  the  Communist  Party  during  that 
period  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Have  you  ever  resigned  membership  in  the  Communist 
Party  ? 

I\Ir.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  IIiTz.  Jack  Davis  was  a  witness  before  this  committee  in  Al- 
bany, New  York,  on  April  9,  1954.  Mr.  Davis  identified  you  during  his 
testimony  as  a  person  he  knew  to  be  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party 
during  the  period  of  his  own  membership  in  the  Communist  Party. 
]\Ir.  Fried,  I  ask  you  whether  or  not  the  testimony  of  Jack  Davis  as  it 
pertained  to  you  is  correct  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  IIiTz.  Charles  B.  Eegan  testified  on  October  2,  1957 

Mr.  Fried.  Excuse  me. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Fried.  You  asked  a  question  ? 

]\Ir.  HiTz.  I  did  not  think  you  were  kidding,  but  if  you  want  to  con- 
sult with  counsel,  I  will  be  very  happy  to  give  you  the  time;  otherwise, 
I  will  have  to  read  any  question  once,  and  then  when  you  are  through,  if 
you  are  conferring,  I  have  got  to  read  it  again.  We  will  be  happy  to 
let  you  consult  at  any  time. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Fried.  The  first  and  fifth. 

Mr.  Johansen.  What  was  the  answer? 

]Mr.  HiTz.  The  first  and  li  ftli  was  the  answer. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1653 

By  that,  you  meant  the  objection  is  l)ased  upon  tlie  first,  and  fifth 
amendments  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  will  now  ask  the  question :  Charles  B.  Kegan  testified 
on  Octof)er  2,  1957,  that  he  knew  you  as  a  member  of  the  Communist 
I^arty  in  Buffalo,  New  York,  and  that  he  also  knew  you  as  a  repre- 
sentative of  the  UE.    Is  that  testimony  accurate? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Joseph  A.  Chatley  testified  before  this  committee  in 
Buffalo,  New  York,  on  October  3,  1957,  that  he  knew  you  as  a  Com- 
munist member  and  as  an  org;anizer  for  the  UE.  Is  his  testimony 
accurate  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Were  you  acquainted  with  either  Charles  B.  Eegan, 
Joseph  A.  Chatley,  or  Jack  Davis  while  you  were  employed  by  the 
UE? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

JNIr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Andrew  Berecz — by  the  way,  before  I  ask  you  that, 
were  you  here  yesterday  in  the  hearing  room  and  did  you  hear  Wit- 
ness Berecz  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  You  refuse  to  answer  on  the  first  and  fifth  as  to  whether 
you  were  in  the  room  and  heard  a  named  witness  yesterday,  sir? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

]VIr.  HiTz.  You  are  here  under  subpena,  I  am  sure,  today  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Are  you  a  voluntary  witness  ? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel — off  the  record. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Pool.  On  the  record. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Fried,  I  will  withdraw  the  last  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed. 

Mr.  ITiTZ.  Mr.  Berecz  has  identified  Norman  Sternbach,  Milton 
Rosen,  Milton  Kaplan,  Hy  Rosoff,  and  Mortimer  Scheer,  as  persons 
known  to  him  as  colonizers  for  the  Communist  Party  in  the  Buffalo 
ai-ea.  Did  you  ever  discuss  this  phase  of  Communist  Party  activity 
with  any  of  those  persons  ? 

IVfr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  ever  discuss  Communist  Party  techniques  as 
they  apply  to  labor  groups  with  any  of  these  persons;  that  is,  Milton 
Rosen,  Milton  Kaplan,  Hy  Rosoff,  and  Norman  Sternbach? 

]\Ir.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Plave  you  ever  been  a  candidate  for  the  assembly  on  the 
American  Labor  ticket  in  Erie  County,  New  Yoi-k? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Mr.  Fried.  Is  that  the  end  of  the  question  ?     First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Berecz  has  testified  that  he  did  not  know  you  as  a 
( 'Ommunist.  He  did  testify,  hoMever,  that  he  attended  meetings  of 
a  labor  group  to  which  he  would  be  iuvited  by  Sam  (^olenuin  and 


1654    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y,,    AREA 

Norman  Ross,  who  "were  organizers  for  the  Communist  Party  in  the 
Buffalo  area,  and  were  as  such  known  to  him  as  Communists.  Mr. 
Berecz  testified  that  you  were  present  at  several  of  these  meetings  in 
J  948  and  1949.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  in  1948 
and  1949,  Mr.  Fried  ? 

Mr.  Fmed.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  know  Norman  Ross  and  Sam  Coleman  as  Com- 
munist Party  organizers,  Mr.  Fried  ? 

Mr.  Fried.  First  and  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  have  no  f  urtlier  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  is  excused. 

Call  the  next  witness. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Tobias  Schwartz. 

TESTIMONY  OF  TOBIAS  L.  SCHWARTZ,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  COUNSEL, 
IRA  OOLLOBIN— Resumed 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Mr.  Chairman,  before  I  am  sworn,  I  would  like  to 
say  two  things :  In  the  first  place,  I  would  like  to  make  a  statement  re- 
garding the  events  of  last  time,  last  evening,  and  the  second  place,  I 
would  like  to  state  my  legal  objections  to  this  committee  hearing. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  can  state  your  legal  objections;  and  then  the  other 
part,  I  will  not  entertain.  The  only  thing  you  are  allov>'ed  to  do  is 
state  your  legal  objections. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  May  I  ask,  will  I  be  allowed — 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Let  me  say  this  then :  I  object — and  I  will  try  to 
be  brief — I  object  to  the  legality  of  these  hearings  on  the  following 
grounds:  In  the  first  place,  on  the  grounds  of  the  first  amendment, 
which  guarantees  freedom  of  speech,  press,  and  so  forth,  and,  there- 
fore, limits  the  legislative  purpose  of  Congress  and,  therefore,  investi- 
gations in  this  area  are  illegal. 

I  further  object,  on  the  grounds  of  the  first  amendment,  to  the  fact 
that  the  tape  recorder,  which  one  of  the  defendants  brought  in  yester- 
day and  which,  incidentally,  I  was  also  planning  to  use,  was  ruled 
out  of  order,  the  reason  being  that  in  order  to  make  public  my  testi- 
mony to  friends  and  acquaintances,  that  is,  in  a  sense  to  utilize  the 
freedom  of  the  press.  I  had  intended  to  use  this  tape  immediatel}' 
after  the  hearings,  and  I  am  now  required  to  wait  the  number  of  months 
until  the  official  record  is  available. 

Secondly,  I  would  like  to  protest  the  legality  of  these  hearings  on 
the  grounds  of  the  sixth  amendment.  Under  the  sixth  amendment,  I 
am  guaranteed  the  right  to  confront  witnesses  to  cross-examine  them. 
Much  has  been  made  of  this  letter  that  was  sent  out  to  the  people;  I, 
also,  received  this  letter.  Two  points  on  this:  In  the  first  place,  this 
is  not,  in  spite  of  what  counsel  has  said,  the  right  of  confrontation,  as 
it  has  been  interpreted  by  the  court  and,  in  the  second  ])lace,  the  very 
fact  that  this  letter  was  sent  out  raising  the  question  of  bringing  my 
own  witnesses — which  incidentally  I  regard  as  an  invitation  to  look 
for  stool  pigeons — raising  this  question  and  raising  the  question  of 
witnesses,  it  already  implied  that  there  is  a  certain  tendency  to  regard 
this  hearing  as  a  courtroom  trial  and  not  as  a  congressional  hearing. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1655 

Thirdly  and  fourthly  together,  I  object  on  the  grounds  of  the  9th 
and  10th  amendments,  whicli  reserve  certain  rights  to  the  people  of 
this  country.  Among  tliese  rights,  1  count  the  right  not  to  be  held  up 
in  a  new  form  of  a  public  pillory,  which  category  I  put  this  hearing 
in.  I  have  lost  track  of  the  numbers,  but  nonetheless,  nextly,  I  chal- 
lenge the  legality  of  this  hearing  on  the  grounds  of  the  14th  amend- 
ment. This  point  has  been  made  a  nmnber  of  times  before;  a  num- 
ber of  the  members  of  this  committee  are  illegally  in  Congress,  includ- 
ing the  chairman,  and  therefore  the  hearings  themselves  are,  I  be- 
lieve, illegal. 

I  challenge  the  right  of  this  committee  on  the  grounds  of  article  III, 
section  1  of  our  Constitution,  which  delegates  certain  authorities  to 
the  courts  and  restricts  Congress 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Schwartz.  And  restricts  Congress  from  infringing  upon 
those  grounds.  Therefore,  I  feel,  once  again,  that  this  hearing,  these 
hearings  are  illegal,  I  challenge  the  legality  of  the  hearings  based 
on  the  rules  of  this  very  committee,  which  calls  for  an  open  hearing. 
It  has  been  eminently  made  clear  by  Congress  on  the  opening  day  in 
their  original  argument,  that  this  is  not  an  open  hearing.  I  further 
challenge  the  legality  on  the  old  sacred  tradition,  sacred  Anglo-Saxon 
and  American  legal  tradition  of  academic  freedom.  I  am  a  graduate 
student  of  the  State  University  of  Buffalo,  and  I  feel  that  my  right  to 
my  beliefs  are  being  infringed  upon.  This  is  a  sacred  right  without 
which  no  university  community  can  function,  and  hands  must  be  kept 
offofit. 

And,  finally,  I  challenge  the  legality  of  this  hearing  on  the  grounds 
of  the  fifth  amendment,  which  is  designed  to  protect  people  against  un- 
just accusations,  unjust  accusers.    These  are  my  legal  grounds. 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  objections  are  overruled.  If  you  will  stand,  you  will 
be  sworn. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  be- 
fore this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but 
the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  do. 

Mr.  Pool.  Counsel,  proceed. 

]Mr.  HiTz.  What  is  your  present,  address,  Mr.  Schwartz  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Just  a  moment,  sir;  may  I  at  this  point 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  the  committee  recess  for 
10  minutes. 

Mr.  Pool.  Tlie  committee  will  be  in  recess  for  10  minutes. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Mr.  Pool.  The  committee  wall  come  to  order.  Spectators,  please 
take  your  seats. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  ]Mr.  Chairman,  counsel  for  Mr.  Schwartz  has  asked  me 
if  he  would  have  a  chance  now,  if  the  witness  could  make  a  further 
request  of  the  committee  with  respect  to  a  statement  regarding  yes- 
terday's appearance  concerning  himself. 

Mr.  Pool.  Make  it  briefly  and  concisely,  and  we  will  listen  to  it. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  was  called  as  a  witness  before  this 
committee  during  last  night's  session  at  about  9  :30  p.m.  Not  realizing 
the  loudness  of  my  \"oice  as  carried  by  the  microphone  and  amplified  by 


1656    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

the  public  address  system,  I  spoke  with  much  greater  volume  than  I 
had  intended.  My  only  intention  was  to  make  certain  legal  constitu- 
tional points,  as  a  witness,  just  as  other  witnesses  had  done.  I  believe 
this  incident  occurred  largely  due  to  the  lateness  of  the  hour  and  the 
stress  and  tension  of  a  long,  trying  day,  having  been  in  the  hearing 
room  constantly  from  10  a.m.  on.  Had  my  testimony  been  taken  earlier 
in  the  day,  I  feel  certain  that  I  wovdd  have  been  more  composed. 
That's  it. 

Mr,  Pool.  Your  statement  will  be  made  a  part  of  the  record.  Comi- 
sel,  proceed  with  the  questions. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Schwartz,  had  you  concluded  your  statement  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  HiTz.  You  completed  your  statement  after  being  given  the  op- 
portunity, and  now  you  are  ready  for  questioning  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Please  give  your  present  address  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Will  counsel  identify  the  attorney  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Counsel  for  Mr.  Schwartz  has  asked  me  whether  we  have 
asked  him  his  name  for  the  record.  It  is  my  understanding  that  be- 
fore he  made  his  statement  that  he  was  asked  that,  but  since  there  may 
be  a  question,  I  will  ask  you  now  to  state  your  full  name  for  the  record. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Tobias,  T-o-b-i-a-s,  Schwartz,  S-c-h-w-a-r-t-z. 

Mr.  HiTz.  i\.re  you  also  known  as  Ted  Schwartz  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Yes,  to  my  friends. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  is  your  address,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute.  I  don't  believe  you  answered  my  ques- 
tion.   I  wanted  to  know  who  the  counsel  was. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Gollobin,  will  you  identify  yourself  as  comisel  for 
this  witness  ? 

Mr.  Gollobin.  Ira  Gollobin  from  New  York  City. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  And  Mr.  Schwartz,  your  address  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  117  Groveland,  G-r-o-v-e-l-a-n-d.  I  am  not  sure 
whether  it  is  street  or  avenue,  or  which  is  customary  here  in  Buffalo. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  would  like  to  question  the  relevancy  of  that 
question  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  State  the  relevancy  of  the  question,  Counsel. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  That  is,  it  is  obvious  I  was  born. 

Mr.  Pool.  He  will  state  the  relevancy.    You  have  asked  for  it. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  It  is  part  of  the  identification  of  you  as  a  w^itness,  and 
because  of  the  information  that  we  have,  it  will  be  helpful  to  us  in 
determining  the  extent  and  nature  of  your  certain  activities  concern- 
ing which  we  have  been  advised. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  September  8, 1928. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  is  your  education,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Again,  I  question  the  relevancy  of  this  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  the  relevancy  of  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  The  same  i-elevancy  that  determines  your  partial  identity 
and  determine  the  possibility  of  your  fitting  into  the  activities  con- 
cerning which  we  have  information  and  tlie  significance  of  that  activ- 
ity in  relation  to  you. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  have  also  stated  my  name  and  address,  and  I  have 
identified  myself  in  my  preliminary  statement  as  a  graduate  student 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1657 

of  the  university.  I  don't  see,  really,  that  this  has  anything  to  do  with 
what  I  have  been  asked. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Your  educational  background  prior  to  that,  I  assure  you, 
is  relevant  to  the  activities  concerning  which  we  have  information 
and  have  been  advised. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  think  it's  quite  evident. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Now,  just  a  minute. 

Mr.  Pool.  Ask  your  question,  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Your  educational  background  prior  to  your  present 
course  of  education  as  a  graduate  student  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  think  it's  quite  evident  that  if  I  am  a  graduate 
student,  I  had  also  an  undergraduate  degree. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  was  the  degree  and  where  was  it  obtained  and 
when  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Is  this  still  relevant? 

Mr.  Hitz.  We  insist  that  it  is  relevant. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Is  this  still  on  the  same  basis  ? 

Mr.  Hitz.  It  is. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Would  you  repeat  the  question,  please  ? 

Mr.  Hitz.  What  is  your  educational  background  prior  to  your 
graduate  work  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  have  an  undergraduate  degree  as  a  bachelor  of 
electrical  engineering. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Give  where  and  when  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  How  on  earth  is  this  relevant  ? 

Mr.  Hitz.  Same  reason. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  don't  quite  see  it,  sir ;  would  you  explain  it  to  me, 
please  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  It  is  evident  that  it  is  relevant,  and  I  will  direct  you  to 
answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  My  undergraduate  degree  was  from  the  City  Col- 
lege of  New  York  and  now  known,  I  believe — I  am  not  sure  of  it— the 
College  of  the  City  College  of  New  York  in  New  York  City. 

Mr.  Hitz.  And  the  year  of  the  degi-ee  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Again,  I  question  the  relevance  of  this. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  will  direct  you  to  answer  the  question.     It  is  relevant. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  If  I  remember  correctly,  I  think  I  got  my  degree — 
this  is  to  the  best  of  my  memory — my  undergraduate  degree  in  1949. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Will  you  state  your  present  employment  a  little  more 
precisely  than  what  you  have  indicated? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  have  stated  it  quite  fully,  sir.  I  am  a  graduate 
student  at  the  State  University  of  New  York  at  Butfalo,  doing  my 
graduate  work  for  a  degree  in  the  biological  sciences,  investigating 
some  basic  problems  relating  to  cancer  research  and  relating  to  some 
fundamental  biological  problems  which,  incidentally,  have  no  political 
relevancy  of  any  sort. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Does  that  study  embrace  your  entire  time  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  That  study — what  do  you  mean,  my  "entire  time'"  ? 
I  also  sleep,  on  occasion. 

Mr.  Hitz.  All  of  your  working  time  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Yes,  it  embraces  all  of  my  working  time. 

Mr.  Hitz.  Do  you  have  any  other  em]:)loyment  at  this  time? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  have  no  other  employment  at  this  time. 


1658    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  long  have  you  been  a  graduate  student  at  the  uni- 
versity ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  How  on  earth  is  this  relevant?  You  have  got  my 
educational  background.  You  know  what  1  am  doing.  What  are  you 
after  now,  other  than  a  hshing  expedition  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  It  is  very  evident  that  the  question  is  relevant,  and  I  will 
direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Excuse  me,  would  you  please  repeat  the  question  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  was  your  employment  before  you  commenced  your 
graduate  studies  at  the  university  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  As  I  recall  it,  I  don't  think  that  was  the  question. 
Can  we  have  it  read  back,  please  ? 

Mr.  Pool  (to  reporter) .  Please  read  the  question. 

Mr.  PIiTz.  Please  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute.     [To  reporter.]     Read  the  question. 

(The  reporter  read  the  pending  question.) 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  withdraw  the  last  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Do  you  insist  on  his  answering  the  question  the  reporter 
read? 

Mr.  HiTz.  No,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  made  a  mistake, 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Thank  you,  sir,  we  all  do  make  mistakes,  you  know. 

Mr.  Pool.  Answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  The  question  was,  if  I  remember  correctly,  how  long 
have  I  been  a  graduate  student.  That  is  not  an  easy  question.  I  have 
been  a  graduate  student  in  this  particular  program  from  roughly  1958 
on,  that  is,  to  the  best  of  my  memory.  Prior  to  that,  I  was  enrolled  as 
a  part-time  graduate  student  to  the  University  of  Buffalo. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  long  were  you  in  that  role  of  part-time  graduate 
student  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  really  don't  remember  and  don't  see  its  pertin- 
ency. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  It  is  pertinent  because  we  have  received  information  to 
(he  effect  that  you  were  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  assigned  to 
the  Professional  Club  in  the  Buffalo  area.  Your  connections  with 
educational  institutions  insofar  as  they  may  have  to  do  with  your 
Communist  Party  activity,  of  the  sort  concerning  which  we  have  infor- 
mation, is  relevant. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  can't  quite  see  how  it  suddenly  becomes  un-Ameri- 
can to  be  a  graduate  student. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  j^ou  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  What  was  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  State  the  question  again.  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  How  long  were  you  engaged  in  this  graduate  work  prior 
to  your  present  graduate  work  at  the  University  of  Buffalo  ? 

^Ir.  Schwartz.  I  have  already  answered  that  question.  I  said  I 
don't  remember. 

Mr.  ITiTZ.  When  was  the  last  employment  that  you  had  prior  to 
doing  graduate  work  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  again  question  the  relevancy  of  this  question.  It 
looks  more  and  more  like  a  fishing  expedition  to  me.  There  is  no 
legislative  purpose. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1659 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  that  the  witness  suspend 
categorizing  these  questions  and  respond  to  the  questions. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  am  trying  to  answer  the  question  to  the  best  of 
my  ability.    What  was  the  question  again  ? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  What  is  the  last  employment  you  had  before  you  did 
graduate  work  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Do  you  mean  to  tell  me  that  your  investigators  have 
not  yet  uncovered  that  piece  of  information  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  That  is  not  responsive  to  the  question.  I  am  going  to 
direct  you  to  answer  the  question,  for  the  last  time. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  worked  as  a  design  engineer  for  a  factory  in  the 
Buffalo  area. 

Mr.  HiTz.  What  is  the  name  of  the  factory,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  It  was  Erie  Electric  Company. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Is  that  the  last  employment  that  you  have  had  except  your 
occupation  over  an  indefinite  period  of  time  as  a  graduate  student  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  During  what  time  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Just  a  moment,  sir. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Pool.  Did  you  have  anything  further  to  add  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  He  hasn't  answered  the  question,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Pool  (to  reporter).  Will  you  read  the  latter  question? 

(The  reporter  read  the  pending  question  and  answer.) 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  would  like  to  amend  that  answer  to  read :  "To  the 
best  of  my  recollection,  that  is  correct." 

Mr.  HiTz.  Now  the  pending  question  is,  In  what  period  of  time 
were  you  working  for  the  Erie  Electric  Company  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  If  I  remember  correctly,  roughly,  from  somewhere 
in  1954  up  until  the  time  that  I  left  my  job  there  to  become  a  full- 
time  graduate  student. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  And  approximately  when  was  that  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Approximately  when  was  that  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  was  it,  the  time  you  left  there  to  become  a  full- 
time  graduate  student  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  already  indicated  that  I  became  a  full-time  grad- 
uate student  in  1958.    It's  in  the  record,  sir. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  did  you  work  before  you  worked  for  Erie  Elec- 
tric Company  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  It  seems  to  me  this  question  is  not  pertinent  and 
there  is  just  no  point  to  it. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schw^artz.    What  is  its  relevancy  ? 

Mr.  PIiTz.  Same  relevancy. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  relevancy  is  evident.    Answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  If  I  remember  correctly,  I  worked  for  a  company 
somewhere  in  New  York  City  called  the  Garod  Majestic  something 
television  company,  or  some  such  thing. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Will  you  spell  the  first  name  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  am  not  sure  of  the  spelling. 

]\Ir.  HiTZ.  Just  do  the  best  you  can. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  believe  it  is  G-a-r-o-d. 

36-414— >64 11 


1660    COMIVIUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  HiTZ.  And  you  worked  there  until  1954,  did  you,  sir,  when  you 
went  to  Erie  Electric  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  To  the  best  of  my  memory,  yes. 

Mr.  HiTz.  How  long  were  you  with  Garod  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Well,  you  are  going  pretty  far  back  now,  and  quite 
frankly  I  don't  keep  records  like  you  do,  but  to  the  best  of  my  mem- 
ory, I  think  from  some  time  in  1953. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  you  work  there  about  a  year  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Roughly. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  did  you  work  before  that  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  again  challenge  the  relevancy  of  this  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  question  is  relevant.    Answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Would  you  please  explain  why  it's  relevant  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Same  relevancy  as  the  other  questions  having  to  do  with 
employment.  You  have  been  advised  already  that  there  is  information 
in  the  hands  of  the  committee  that  you  have  been  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party,  that  you  were  assigned  at  one  time  here  in  the 
Buffalo  area  to  a  professional  group.  We  are  interested  in  your  em- 
ployment i-ecord  having  to  do  with  that  background  of  your  activities, 
according  to  our  information. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  Chair  rules  that  it  is  relevant  and  I  direct  you  to 
answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  May  I  point  out  that  this  was  not  in  Buffalo  in  the 
allegation  that  you  are  pointing  to,  pertaining  only  to  Buffalo.  There- 
fore, how  on  earth  is  it  relevant  ? 

Mr.  Hitz.  It  is  background  from  your  work  in  the  Communist 
Party,  as  we  have  information. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  In  Buffalo  ? 

Mr.  Pool.  I  direct  you,  for  the  last  time,  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Before  that  time,  I  served  in  the  U.S.  Army  as  a 
soldier.    Now,  is  that  un-American  ? 

Mr.  Hitz.  This  committee  has  information  that  in  1960  you  were 
a  member  of  the  professional  group  of  the  Communist  Party ;  is  that 
right,  sir,  in  the  Buffalo  area  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  May  I  point  out  that  the  information  that  you  have 
is  of  a  hearsay  nature  given  by  an  informer  comparable  to  Judas 
in  the  Bible,  and  I  will  have  no  truck  about  informers.  I  have  a 
conscience. 

Mr.  Pool.  Go  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  would  like  to  direct  to  counsel  that  he  did  not 
indicate  the  source  of  the  information.  I  supposedly  have  a  righ-' 
to  know. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  have  not  refused  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right.  I  direct  you  to  answer  the  question  for  the 
last  time. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  refuse  to  answer  the  question  on  the  grounds 
which  I  asserted  in  my  opening  statement. 

Mr.  Pool.  Including  the  fifth  amendment  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  It  was  there,  sir.    Look  back  at  the  record. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Does  the  witness  say  tliat  it  includes  the  fiflh 
amendment  ? 

Mr.  Schwartz.  It  is  in  the  record,  sir. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1661 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Does  the  witness  say  that  it  includes  the  fifth  amend- 
ment, because  in  the  opening  statement,  the  gentleman  was  not  in- 
voking reasons  for  refusing  to  answer  questions. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Yes,  it  could  include  the  fifth  amendment,  which 
protects  us  from  false  accusers  and  false  accusations. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  Hearsay. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Before  going  to  the  next  question,  I  beg  your  indulgence. 
I  feel  that  we  should  advise  Mr.  Schwartz  that  the  fifth  amendment 
self-incrimination  clause  protects  him  from  more  than  false  accusa- 
tion. If  he  intends  only  to  resort  to  the  protection  against  false  ac- 
cusation when  he  invokes  the  fifth  amendment,  he  is  going  to  run  the 
risk  of  a  possible  prosecution  for  an  accusation  that  is  not  false.  You 
have  not  claimed  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Pool.  One  more  time,  Mr.  Witness,  I  will  give  you  a  direction  to 
answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  am  conferring  with  counsel.  Would  you  excuse 
me? 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Schwartz.  I  will  welcome  comisel  for  my  welfare.  It  seems  a 
bit  unusual ;  however,  I  claim  the  entire  fifth  amendment,  which  the 
Founding  Fathers  put  in  precisely  to  protect  us  against  false  accusa- 
tions, and  that  it  is  certainly  well  known. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  to  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  That  is  the  last  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  is  excused. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Richard  Alexander,  please. 

TESTIMONY  OF  RICHARD  ALEXANDER— Resumed 

Mr.  HiTz.  Mr.  Alexander,  you  have  been  asked  to  come  back  to  the 
witness  chair  from  which  you  were  excused  a  short  time  ago. 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute.  Counsel.  Will  the  photographers  please 
desist  from  taking  pictures  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  From  which  you  were  excused  a  short  time  ago  when  you 
were  in  the  process  of  making  what  you  said  was  an  objection  to  your 
appearance  here,  being  made  prior  to  being  sworn.  Are  you  able  to 
continue  with  the  objection  or  whatever  it  is  you  had  in  mind  doing 
within  the  limits  of  the  procedures  that  have  been  well  described  to 
you  and  the  others  that  this  committee  permits  with  regard  to  prior 
testimony  statements  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  would  like  to  say  that  I  am  not  an  attorney.  I 
ha,ve  phrased  here  as  best  I  can  my  objections,  as  I  see  it,  to  this  com- 
mittee. I  phrased  them  in  the  terms  of  the  legal  terms  of  the  Constitu- 
tion and  I  should  like,  therefore,  to  continue  to  read  the  statement  that 
I  have  prepared. 

Mr.  Pool.  All  right.  You  may  read  it,  with  the  rules  of  the  com- 
mittee in  mind,  and  make  it  concise  and  to  the  point.  State  your 
objections. 

Mr.  Alexander.  We  assume,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  what  was  said 
before  is  already  part  of  the  record  so  we  won't  have  to  repeat  it. 

Mr.  Pool.  That  is  correct. 


1662    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Alexandek.  My  further  objection  to  the  illegality  and  uncon- 
stitutionality of  this  committee  is  as  follows :  The  fifth  amendment  of 
the  Constitution  is  utilized  by  this  committee  in  a  manner  exactly  con- 
trary to  the  meaning  and  origin  of  this  amendment.  The  fifth  amend- 
ment is  a  result  of  the  struggles  in  England  against  the  hated  Inquisi- 
tion, the  infamous  committee  before  which  heretics  and  witches  were 
smnmoned  w^ithout  the  benefit  of  trial. 

Mr.  KiTz.  Would  you  let  me  interrupt?  I  would  like  to  consult 
with  the  staff  director. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Pool.  Finish  your  sentence. 

Mr.  Alexander.  That  infamous  committee  before  which  heretics 
and  witches  were  summoned  without  the  benefit  of  trial  or  the  right  to 
confront  their  accusers  or  to  cross-examine  witnesses  and  paid  inform- 
ers against  them  or  to  be  able  to  summon  witnesses  on  their  own  be- 
half. It  is  indeed  ironic  that  the  very  amendment  which  was  designed 
to  protect  people  of  the  coimtr}^  against  such  inquisitions  should  be 
used  by  this  modern-day  inquisition  to  pillory  persons'  reputations 
and  character.    For  this  reason 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  Mr.  Chairman 


Mr.  Alexander.  — it  is  illegal  and  unconstitutional 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute. 

Mr.  Johansen.  I  suggest  this  is  not  only  argument,  but  I  suggest 
it  is  contempt  to  categorize  this  committee,  and  I  ask  that  the  witness 
be  instructed  to  desist  and  to  state  his  legal  reasons  and  proceed  with 
the  questioning. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  are  so  instructed. 

Mr.  Alexander.  For  all  of  these  reasons,  I  wish  to  recommend  to 
the  chairman  of  the  committee 

Mr.  Pool.  We  are  not  taking  any  recommendations ;  we  are  taking 
objections  right  now. 

Mr.  Alexander.  Isn't  it  a  fact 

Mr.  Pool,  No.  You  are  allow^ed  to  make  your  objections  right  now ; 
not  recommendations  and  not  make  a  speech.  Now  state  your  objec- 
tions. 

Mr.  Alexander.  This  committee  has  given  me  the  privilege  of  call- 
ing witnesses,  and  therefore  I  should  like  to  call  on  Albert  Einstein  as 
a  witness. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  said  to  state  your  objections.  We  are  not  taking  rec- 
ommendations. 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  am  merely  trying  to,  under  the  letter  that  has 
been  discussed  here  several  times — there  have  been  witnesses,  it  has 
been  proposed  that  witnesses  are  allowed.  I  would  just  like  to  call 
for  a  witness  for  me,  Albert  Einstein,  who  said,  "Every  intellectual 
who  is  called  before  one  of  these  committees  should  refuse  to  testify — 
that  is,  he  must  be  prepared  to  go  to  jail  and  economic  ruin." 

Mr.  Pool.  Your  objections  are  overruled.  Stand  and  you  will  be 
sworn. 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  ask  that  this  be  referred  to  the  Speaker  of  the 
House  and  Congress. 

Mr.  Pool.  You  had  your  statement  to  stand  on.  Will  you  stand  and 
be  sworn  ?     Your  objections  are  overruled. 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    TPIE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1663 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  be- 
fore this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but 
the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Alexander,  I  do. 

Mr.  Pool.  Proceed,  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTz.  "VVliat  is  your  present  address,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  would  like  to  know  what  the  relevancy  is. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  the  relevancy  of  the  question.  Counsel. 

Mr.  HiTz.  It  is  part  of  the  identification  now  in  the  hands  of  the 
committee  having  to  do  with  Communist  Party  activities  of  an  im- 
portant nature  in  the  Buffalo  area. 

Mr.  Pool.  I  rule  that  it  is  relevant  and  direct  you  to  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  Alexander.  May  I  ask  a  question?  Is  this  to  identifj^  me  in 
the  eyes  of 

Mr.  Pool.  I  laile  that  it  is  relevant  and  I  direct  you  to  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  Alexander.  41  ISIoulton  Avenue. 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  and  where  were  you  bom  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  call  on  my  protection  under  the  Constitution 
and  all  of  the  amendments  that  have  been  stated  here,  including  the 
first,  the  fifth,  the  sixth  amendments  to  the  Constitution,  to  decline  to 
answer  this  question. 

]Mr.  Pool.  Proceed  to  the  next  question.    Next  question. 

Mr.  PIiTZ.  Your  enumeration  exchirled  the  fifth  amendment  is  my 
understanding.    Am  I  correct  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  included  the  fifth. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Included  the  fifth. 

Mr.  Pool.  Next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliat  is  your  educational  background  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  am  a  high  school  graduat^e. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Are  you  a  graduate  of  any  school  Ijeyond  high  school? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  attended  radar  school  in  the  Navy  when  I  volun- 
teered in  the  war  against  fascism.  I  graduated  from  that  school  and 
I  achieved  a  grade  of  first  class  radar  technician. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  go  to  college  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  never  gracluated  from  college. 

Mr.  Johansen.  Your  answer  is  not  responsive. 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  am  trying  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Did  you  attend  college? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  have  attended  college  for  individual  courses  over 
a  period  of  years. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wliere? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  attended,  I  believe — this  is  a  long  time  ago — I  be- 
lieve I  took  a  course  in  English  literature  in  City  College  of  New  York. 
I  took  a  course,  a  driving  course — I  forget  the  name  of  the  school  that 
I  attended  in  taking  that  course. 

Mr.  IIiTZ.  Was  tliat  a  college  course  in  driving,  sir  ? 

Mr.  xVlexander.  No,  it  was  not  a  college  course. 

INIr.  HiTZ.  Will  you  confine  yourself  to  that  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  attendod  one  semester  at  Hofstra  College.  I  took 
a  course  in  mapmaking. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Where  is  that  located  ? 


1664    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

Mr.  Alexander.  Somewhere  in  Long  Island, 

Mr.  HiTz.  When  did  you  come  to  Buffalo  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I'm  not  sure. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Approximately  when  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  Maybe  you  can  furnish  me  with  the  information. 
I  don't  exactly  recall  when  it  was  that  I  did  come. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  ask  the  Chair  to  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the  ques- 
tion. 

Mr.  Pool.  He  said  he  didn't  recall,  so  go  on  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where  are  you  employed,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  Like  many  millions  of  other  Americans,  I  am  un- 
employed. I  intend — I  might  add  for  the  record  that  I  intend  to  apply 
to  General  Motors,  seeing  that  their  rate  of  profit  has  been  so  good. 

Mr.  Pool.  Just  a  minute. 

Mr.  JoHANSEN.  I  suggest  that  we  proceed  with  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Pool.  Give  him  the  next  question. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wlien  were  you  last  employed  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  When? 

Mr.  HiTz.  Wlien  were  you  last  employed,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  Up  until  last  Friday  ? 

Mr.  HiTz.  At  what  ? 

Mr.  Alexander,  As  a  draftsman. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Where? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  don't  see  what  the  relevancy  of  this  question  is. 

Mr.  Pool.  State  the  relevancy  of  the  question. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Same  relevancy  as  stated  on  the  other  questions. 

Mr.  Alexander.  What  is  that? 

Mr.  HiTZ.  You  have  been  identified  as  a  person  engaged  in  impor- 
tant Communist  Party  activities  in  the  Erie  County  group.  Your 
activities  in  and  out  of  that  are  important  and  relevant  to  the  purposes 
of  this  committee. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  question  is  relevant,  and  I  direct  you  to  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  Alexander.  Well,  I  will  answer  the  question.  I  don't  see  the 
relevancy.    I  work  at  Hobam,  Incorporated,  in  the  town  of  Tonawanda. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  For  how  long? 

Mr.  Alexander.  Less  than  a  year. 

Mr.  HiTz.  "^^^lere  did  you  work  before  that  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  Fedders  Corporation. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  For  how  long  ? 

Mr.  Alexander.  Nine  years. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Andrew  Berecz  has  identified  you  as  a  person  known 
to  him  as  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party ;  is  that  statement  true  'i 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  stand  on  the  amendments  that  I  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  Hrrz.  In  the  fall  of  1961,  two  leaders  of  the  national  group 
of  the  Communist  Party  came  to  Buffalo  for  the  purpose  of  expelling 
Mortimer  Scheer,  Erie  County  Communist  leader  for  the  party. 
Were  you  present  at  that  meeting,  Mr.  Alexander? 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  stand  on  the  previous  grounds. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Were  you,  at  that  meeting,  also  invited  to  leave  the  Com- 
munist Party  because  you  agreed  with  Mortimer  Scheer  when  he 
urged  dissolution  of  the  Communist  Party  in  order  to  avoid  registra- 
tion under  tlie  Internal  Security  Act  of  1 950  ? 


COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA    1665 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  stand  on  tlie  previous  grounds. 

Mr.  PIiTZ.  Did  you,  after  the  meeting,  leave  the  Communist  Party? 

Mr,  Alexander.  Same  answer. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Did  INIortimer  Sclieer  then  form  a  new  organization 
known  as  the  Progressive  Labor  Movement,  along  with  Milton  Rosen 
now  of  New  York  and  formerly  of  Buffalo? 

Mr.  Alexander.  Same  answer. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Are  you  a  member  of  tlie  group,  the  Progressive  Labor 
Movement  or  group  ? 

Mr,  Alexander.  Same  answer. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  On  March  3,  1962,  demonstrations  were  held  in  protest 
against  nuclear  testing  on  the  part  of  the  United  States.  I  show  you  a 
photograph  taken  on  March  3,  1962,  in  the  vicinity  of  Hengerers  De- 
partment Store  in  Buffalo,  and  ask  you  if  you  recognize  yourself  in 
the  photograph. 

(Witness  conferred  with  counsel.) 

Mr.  Alexander.  It  is  a  poor  picture  of  me,  but  I  recognize  myself. 
I  was  on  the  peace  walk.  There  have  been  several  of  them  in  Buffalo, 
and  I  have  been  on  all  of  them. 

Mr.  HiTz.  I  show  you  a  throwaway  advertising  a  May  9,  1963, 
Walk  For  Peace,  which  lists  Prof  Philip  Morrison  and  Irwin  J.  Atkins 
as  speakers,  and  I  ask  if  Miroslaw  [Marty]  Zelman  and  Josephine 
Spom,  who  also  left  the  Communist  Party,  participated  in  any  con- 
ference held  prior  to  the  time  tlie  demonstration  came  into  being. 

Mr.  Alexander.  Tliis  question,  the  committee  is  asking  me  to  be  an 
informer  as  I  see  it.  I  have  nothing  to  pay  as  far  as  being  an  informer. 
I  will  not  talk  about  any  persons  mentioned  by  this  committee.  I 
stand  on  the  fifth  amendment  and  the  other  amendments  to  the 
Constitution. 

Mr.  HiTZ.  Mr.  Alexander,  are  you  a  member  of  the  Progressive 
Labor  Movement?  I  am  not  sure  that  I  asked  you  that  question 
before. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  You  did. 

Mr.  Alexander.  I  will  answer  again.  I  stand  on  tlie  amendments 
which  I  previously  stated. 

Mr.  HiTz.  Thank  you.  No  further  questions  of  this  witness. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  ISIr.  Chainnan,  could  we  have  made  a  part  of  the 
record  the  transcript  that  was  used  by  the  first  witness,  Mr.  Berecz, 
when  he  testified  whicli,  from  what  I  observed,  lie  used  and  was  pre- 
pared on  Government  paper? 

Mr.  Pool.  We  will  take  that  under  advisement. 

Mr.  Faulkner.  There  is  one  other  thing. 

Mr.  Pool.  The  witness  is  excused.    You  have  finished  the  testimony. 

I  want  to  express,  on  behalf  of  the  committee,  public  thanks  and 
appreciation  for  the  very  helpful  cooperation  of  the  following  agen- 
cies in  Buffalo : 

1.  U.S.  Marshal,  Alvin  Grossman,  Western  District  New  York,  and 
his  entire  staff  for  helping  to  set  up  the  hearings  and  facilitate  the 
proceedings. 

2.  Mr.  George  Vigarita  and  his  staff  of  the  General  Services 
Administration. 

3.  Members  of  the  Border  Palrol  wh(<  were  sworn  as  deputy  U.S. 
Marshals. 


1666    COMMUNIST    ACTIVITIES    IN    THE    BUFFALO,    N.Y.,    AREA 

4.  And  last  but  certainly  not  least,  thanks  for  all  past  and  present 
cooperation  of  the  Buffalo  Police  Department;  in  particular  Commis- 
sioner William  H.  Schneider,  Assistant  Chief  of  Detectives  Michael 
A.  Amico,  and  Detective-Sergeant  Samuel  Giambrone,  and  also  mem- 
bers of  the  Subversive  Squad,  Lt.  Frank  Dougherty,  and  Lt.  George 
Wittman. 

The  record  of  this  hearing  speaks  for  itself.  There  are  those  who 
say  that  communism  presents  no  problem — and  no  danger — to  the 
United  States.  I  believe  that  the  facts  developed  in  this  hearing  and 
the  conduct  of  the  witnesses — all  of  them  identified  as  members  of  the 
Communist  Party — are  sufficient  to  refute  this  claim. 

Basically,  there  are  only  two  ways  of  life  in  the  governmental  or 
political  sphere — the  way  of  law  and  the  way  of  the  jungle. 

Communism,  through  the  conduct  of  its  adherents  in  these  hearings, 
has  been  shown  to  be  a  throwback,  a  back-to-the- jungle  movement — 
in  other  words,  the  blackest  form  of  reaction.  I  make  this  point  be- 
cause there  are  some  who  still  entertain  the  illusion  that  communism 
is  somehow  "progressive"  or  "liberal." 

I  wish  to  comment  on  a  charge  that  has  been  made  repeatedly  dur- 
ing this  hearing — the  charge  that  during  the  last  hearings  of  the 
committee  in  Buffalo  in  1057  the  witness  table  was  bugged. 

This  charge  is  absolutely  false.  The  committee  has  never  at  any 
time  bugged  a  witness  table,  here  or  anywhere  else.  It  has  always 
respected  the  lawyer-client  relationship.  Absolutely  no  evidence  was 
produced  in  1957 — and  none  lias  since  been  produced- — that  the  wit- 
ness table  was  bugged  in  1957.  No  evidence  has  ever  been  produced 
that  it  has  bugged  a  witness  table  at  any  time. 

Witness  after  witness  has  charged  that  the  committee  was  violating 
the  Constitution  in  summoning  them  to  appear  and  violating  their 
constitutional  rights  through  its  hearing  procedures. 

I  believe  the  hearing  record  should  make  it  clear  that  the  right  of 
Congress  and  of  this  committee  to  issue  subpenas  to  compel  testimony 
has  never  been  questioned  by  the  courts  of  this  land. 

I  further  wish  the  record  to  sliow  that  the  courts  of  this  land — in- 
cluding the  Supreme  Court — have  over  and  over  again  reviewed  and 
upheld  the  constitutionality  of  the  committee  and  its  procedures. 

I  would  remind  those  persons  who  sincerely  oppose  the  existence 
and  operations  of  this  committee  that  the  committee  represents  the 
legal,  American  way  of  dealing  with  subversion  through  legislation. 
The  American  people,  through  their  elected  representatives,  have  con- 
sistently and  overwhelming  indicated  their  support  for  this  process 
as  a  valid  and  needed  security  measure. 

Mr.  Johansen  ? 

Mr.  Johansen.  Mr.  Chairman,  as  the  ranking  minority  member  of 
the  committee,  I  want  to  associate  myself  vrith  both  the  statements 
made  by  tlie  distinguished  chairman,  the  words  of  appreciation  to  the 
officials,  who  have  cooperated  under  considerable  strain  and  burden  and 
inconvenience,  and  all  who  have  worked  together  in  connection  with 
the  hearings,  including  our  reporter,  stenotypist,  and  members  of  the 
committee  staff. 

I  associate  myself  also  with  the  concluding  statement  that  was  made 
by  the  chairman. 

Mr.  Pool.  Is  there  any  other  statement  ? 

The  committee  will  stand  in  recess  until  further  called  by  the  Chair. 

(Whereupon,  at  1 :20  p.m.,  Thursday,  April  30,  1965,  the  subcom- 
mittee adjourned  subject  to  the  call  of  the  Chair.) 


INDEX 

INDIVIDUALS 
A 

Alexander,  Gertrude  (Mrs.  Richard  Alexander) 1519,1520, 

1522,  1523,  1530,  1544,  154S-1550,  1552,  1553,  1610,  1614,  1630-1635 
(testimony) 

Alexander,   Richard  H 1519, 1520, 1523, 1530, 

1544,  1548-1550,  1552,  1635-1637  (testimony),  1661-1665  (testimony) 

Amlco,  Michael  A 1666 

Atkins,  Irwin  J 1665 

B 

Barenblatt,    (Lloyd  L.) 1583 

Berecz,  Andrew  J__1517-1525, 1531-1562  (testimony),  1566,  1598,  1605,  1609,  1611, 
1619.  1620,  1625,  1629,  1634,  IMO,  1642,  1645,  1649,  1650,  1653,  1664,  1665 

Berman,  Beatrice  (Bea)   (Mrs.  Max  Berman) 1519,  1520, 

1544,  1546,  1547,  1553, 1554,  1647 

Berman,  Max 1520,  1523,  1524,  1530,  1554,  1566,  1641-1643  (testimony) 

Bradley,  Martin  R.,  Jr 1530 

C 

Cannon,  James  P 1528 

Case,  W.  A 1619 

Chatley,  Joseph  A 1521, 1525, 1603, 1653 

Clune,  Michael 1548 

Coleman,    Sam 1518, 1519, 1536,  1543, 1653, 1654 

Copperman,  Abe 1519, 1552 

Copperman,  Ann   (Mrs.  Abe  Copperman) 1519,1552 

Costa,  Leonard 1518, 1534 

D 

Davis,   Benjamin . 1520, 1522-1524, 1544-1551, 1554, 1556, 1609, 1626 

Davis,  Jack ^ ^-  152.5,  1652 

Dennis,    Eugene 1607, 1610 

DePasquale,  Russell 1519,  1538,  1539,  1544,  1629 

DiPasquale,    Russell 1629 

Dougherty,   Frank 1666 

E 

Einstein,   Albert 1627,  16-50, 1662 

Eisler,  Gerhart 1607, 1610 

F 

Faulkner,    Stanley 1.529-1531  (.statement),  1610. 1630, 1635 

Fleming.  Robert  B 1529, 1530, 1637, 1650 

Flynn,  Elizabeth  (Gurley) 1520,1548,1549 

Fried,  Emanuel  J 1523,152.5.1530,1650-16.54  (testimony) 


ii  INDEX 

G 

Page 

Gannett,  Betty 1522, 1524, 1560, 1612, 1646 

Giambrone,  Samuel 1666 

Gibson,   Will 1530, 1562, 1566, 1641, 1643 

Gollobin,  Ira 1530, 1563, 1614, 1621, 1627, 1654 

Green,  Joseph 1519, 1538, 1539, 1544 

Grossman,  Alvin 1665 

H 

Hall,  Gus 1520, 1548, 1549 

Herron,   Frank 1518, 1534 

Hoag,  Diantha 1538, 1539 

I 

Ingerman,  Sid 1519, 1542 

J 
Jones,  Everett    (S.) 1520,1548,1647 

K 

Kaplan,    Milton 1538, 1539, 1604, 1653 

Katz,  Svea  (Mrs.  John  Sonimers  ;  neeKatz) 1518,1534 

Khrushchev,   Nikita   Sergeevich 1519, 1528 

L 

Lenin,  V.  I 1528 

Levine,   Louis 1555 

Lipsitz,    Richard 1530, 1647 

Lumpkin,   Hattie 1520, 1547, 1556 

M 

Massa,  Anthony  (Tony)__  1519,1520,1539,1548,1551,1552,1554-1557,1612,1646 

Massa,  Gloria  (Mrs.  Anthony  Massa) 1520, 

1523,  1524, 1530,  1544,  1547,  1553,  1554, 1637-1641  (testimony) 

McKenzie,  John 1520, 1544 

Moos,  Joanne  (Mrs.  Carl  Moos) 1530 

Morrison,    Philip 1665 

N 
Noto,     Joliunie 1519, 1543, 1544 

P 
Patterson,   William   L I 1520.1557,1560,1616 

Pranis,  Joseph  (Joe) 1523,1524,1530,1620,1647-1650  (testimony) 

R 

Regan,  Charles  B 1.521, 1.525, 1539. 1557, 1561, 1603. 1652,  1653 

Rosen,     Milton 1519,  1528,  1538,  1539,  1541,  1542, 1544,  1604,  1626,  1653,  1665 

RosofE,  Hyman  (Hy) 1538,1539,1604,1653 

Ross,  Norman 15!9.  1.543,  1654 

Rudner,  Seymour  (Sy) 1519,  1520,  1522,  1525,  1530,  1538, 

1539,  1541,  1544,  1554,  1556,  1610-1614  (testimony),  1640,  1646 

S 

Salmin,  Alexander 1519, 1539, 1542, 1553 

Scheer,  Mortimer 1517, 

1519,  1520,  1522-1525,  1528,  1541,  1542,  1544-1551,  1554-1556,  1560, 
1604,  1610,  1612,  1626,  1634,  1635,  1640,  1642,  1646,  1653,  1664, 
1665. 

Scheer,  Phyllis  (Mrs.  Mortimer  Scheer) 1647 

Sclmeider,  William  H 1666 


INDEX  iii 

ruse 

Schwartz,  Helen  (Mrs.  Tobias  Schwartz) 1522,1523 

1530, 1548, 1553, 1554, 1614-1621  ( testimony ),  1649 

Schwartz,  Tobias  L.   (Ted) 1522,1523,1525,1530, 

1548,  1553,  1554,  1627-1628   (testimony),  1654-1661   (testimony) 

Scioli,  Joseph  C 1521,  1530,  1602-1605  (testimony) 

Sommers,  Svea  Katz  (Mrs.  John  Sommers ;  nee  Katz).     (See  Katz  Svea.) 

Sporn,  Josephine  (Mrs.  Paul  Sporu) JGSI.  16<.)5 

Siwrn,  Paul 1519-1521,  1523,  1530,  1543,  1544,  1546, 

1549-1551,  1554-1556, 1561,  1563-1602  (testimony),  1627 

Stalin,   Josef 1528 

Sternbach,  Norman 1538, 1539, 1604, 1653 

T 

Tormey,  Betty  Gannett.     (See  Gannett,  Betty.) 

Touralchuk,  John 1518,  1536 

Touralchuk,  Rose  (Mrs.  John  Touralchuk) 1519,1553 

Trotsky,  Lev   (Leon) 1528 

V 

Vigarita,  George 1665 

W 

Weinstock,  Louis 1520,  1544,  1548,  1549,  1551,  1552,  1554,  1560,  1626 

Witt,  Nathan 1530, 1602 

Wittman,  George 1066 

WoUvenstein,  Edward  A 1519, 1520, 1522,  1523, 1542, 

1541-1547, 1550, 1554, 1556, 1605-1610  (testimony) ,  1626, 1647 
^yolkenstein  (Gloria)    (Mrs.  Edward  Wolkenstein) 1608,1609 

Z 

Zelman,  Dottie  (Mrs.  Miroslaw  Zelman) 1519,  1520,  1544,  1553,  1554 

Zelman,  Maria 1519,  1553 

Zelman,  Miroslaw  B.  (Marty,  Mike) 1519, 

,1520,   1523,   1524,   1530.   1542,   1544,    1547,   1548,   1554-1556,   1566, 

1612.  1640,  1643-1647  (testimony),  1065. 

Zvaleko,  Vera  (Mrs.  Walter  Zvaleko) 1520,1544 

Zvaleko,  Walter  J 1519, 1520,1522, 1523, 

1530, 1543-1547, 1554, 1556,  1610, 1621-1627  (testimony) 

ORGANIZATIONS 

A 

American  Labor  Party 1653 

American  Optical  Co 1575-1577,  1579,  1582,  1584 

American  Radiator  &  Standard  Sanitary  Corp.' 1518. 

1536, 1538,  1539, 1561,  1584,  1586, 1587, 1613 
Anaconda  America  Brass 1603 

B 

Bethlehem  Steel  Corp.,  Lackawanna,  N.Y 1539,  1609,  1629 

Brooklyn  College 1619 

C 

CIO.     (See  Congress  of  Industrial  Organizations.) 
China,  Government  of : 

Communist  Government : 
Embassies : 

Cuba 1528 


'  Sometimes  referred  to  as  Amcrlean-Standard. 


iv  INDEX 

Paae 

City  College  of  the  City  of  New  York  (N.Y.C.) 1657,  11503 

Communist  Party  of  the  United  States  of  America 1520, 

1528,  1537, 1544, 1545, 1548, 1550 
National  Structure: 

National  Committee 1520,  1522,  1546,  1555,  1557 

Slates  and  Territories : 

New  York  State 1528,  1541,  1544,  1557,  1646 

Erie  County 1517-1666 

Buffalo : 

Secretariat—  1520,  1522,  1524,  1556,  1557,  1612,  1640,  1646 
Community  Clubs : 

Tonawanda  Club—  1519,  1523,  1524,  1540,  1553,  1557 

Industrial  Section 1518,  1523,  1536,  1538,  1540,  1557 

Bond  Club'—  1518,  1523,  1536,  1538,  1539,  1540,  1557 

Westinghouse  Club 1539 

Nationality  Club 1519,  1540,  1541 

Professional  Club 1523,  1525,  1553,  1554,  1658,  1660 

Eighth  Street  Book  Shop  (NYC) 1520,1575,1582 

Electrical  Radio  &  Machine  Workers  of  America,  United  (UE)__  1525,  1652,  1653 
Erie  Electric  Co 1659,  1660 

F 

FBI.     {See  U.S.  Government,  Justice  Department,  Federal  Bureau  of  In- 
vestigation. ) 
Fedders   Corp 1664 

G 

Garod  Majestic  (television  company) 1659,  1660 

General  Motors  Corp : 

Chevrolet  Division,   Tonawanda,   N.Y 1521,   1553,   1587,   1588,  1591 

Forge  plant 1649 

H 
Hobam,  Inc 1664 

Hofstra  College   (Hempstead,  N.Y.) 1663 

I 

International  Workers  Order   (IWO) 1532,  1536 

New  York  State 1518 

Buffalo  area : 

International  Workers  Order  Center 1518,  1533-1536 

Hungaria»  Section 1518,  1533 

L 

Lippes  Bakery 1625 

M 
Mine,  Mill  &  Smelter  Workers,  International  Union  of 1521, 1603 

N 

National  Biscuit  Co 1625 

National  Institutes  of  Health.      (See  U.S.  Government,  Health,  Education, 
and  Welfare,  Department  of.) 

New  York  State  Department  of  State 1.595 

New  York  University   (N.Y.C) 1520,  1573,  1574 

Niagara  Falls  Smeltering  &  Refining  Division 1603 

P 

Progressive  Labor  Movement 1517,  1521-1525,  1528,  1561,  1599,  1610, 

1612,  1613,  1620,  1626,  1627,  1634,  1635,  1640-1642,  1650,  1665 

'  Sometimes   referred  to  as  Industrial   Club. 


INDEX  V 

B 

Page 

Roswell  Park  Memorial  Institute  (Buffalo) 1525,  1613,  1628 

Health  Research,  Inc 1522,1613 


Samuel   Greenfield   Co 1603 

Socialist  Workers  Party   (SWP) 1517,1528 

State  University  of  New  York  at  Buffalo   (formerly  University  of  Buf- 
falo, (Buffalo,  N.Y.) 1520,  1521,  1525,  1543, 

1569,  1591,  1593,  1597, 1600,  1613, 1655,  1657,  1658 

Department  of  English 1594 

Steelworkers  of  America,  United,  AFL-CIO  (USWA)  Local  1199 1537,1561 

Subversive  Activities  Control  Board.     {See  U.S.  Government,  Subversive 
Activities  Control  Board.) 

T 
Twin  Coach  Co 1521,  1539,  1578-1580,  1582-1586 

U 

Union  of  Soviet  Socialist  Republics,  Government  of 1537 

Embassies : 

Cuba 1528 

United   Automobile   Workers    (UAW) 1524,1648 

U.S.  Government : 

Health,  Education,  and  Welfare,  Department  of : 

National  Institutes  of  Health 1522, 1525,  1628 

Justice  Department : 

Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation 1535, 1536, 1558, 1559 

Subversive  Activities  Control  Board  (SACB)-__  1540,  1550,  1559,  1560,  1562 

Supreme  Court 1550, 1583 

University  of  Buffalo.     (See  State  University  of  New  York  at  Buffalo.) 

W 
Walk  For  Peace 1665 

Westinghou.se   Electric   Corp 1538, 1539 

Women  Strike  for  Peace 1519, 1523, 1552 

Women's  International  League  for  Peace  and  Freedom 1519, 1523, 1552 

Workers  World  Party 1517,1528 

PUBLICATIONS 

Daily  Worker 1518, 1533, 1534, 1551 

Courier-Express 1592 


o 


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